gore wrote: ↑Mon Mar 18, 2024 3:51 am
The TV stations in my closest market have reduced their transmit power so much that I can no longer receive ATSC 1.0 signals at all, and only one of the ATSC 3.0 signals is being transmitted unencrypted. The ATSC signals are being transmitted at a greater power level or they are more stable here due to the technology, but it doesn't really matter because no one can watch them. It is a completely stupid and ridiculous situation, which makes the device I paid money for completely useless.
You didn't state your market so it's impossible to plot where the ATSC tower(s) is(are) and where the ATSC 3.0 tower is.
When the ATSC 3.0 station switched, its ATSC 1,0 signals may have moved farther away.
After the repack, most ATSC 1.0 stations stayed at their original coverage or increased power on their new frequency, or added vertical polarization
Their previous post mentioned Oklahoma City. In that market all of the participating signals come from the same general area, with only one or two blocks between the tower sites.
KFOR (NBC) is on the same tower as the lighthouse KAUT and is the ATSC 1.0 host of 43.1 CW. Prior to the market's October 2020 Next Gen launch, KFOR moved to KAUT's tower in June 2019 because they outright own that tower, however KFOR is still using the same RF number they've had since they first signed on their transitional DTV signal in 1999.
KOCO (ABC) is on the same tower and signal they've had since 2010 and isn't hosting any of KAUT's channels
KOKH (FOX) is on the same tower and signal they've had since 2004 and is the ATSC 1.0 host of 43.2 Rewind and 43.3 Ion Mystery
KOCB (Ind) is on the same tower and signal they've had since 2006 and is the ATSC 1.0 host of 43.4 Cozi
If they are in OKC and lost stations that haven't changed anything in the past 2 decades, odds are something else is going on with their setup that needs to be addressed. i.e. a failed amp or power inserter, loose connectors, the antenna shifted positions during a windy storm, etc
Last edited by kyl416 on Mon Mar 18, 2024 3:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.
gore wrote: ↑Mon Mar 18, 2024 3:51 am
This whole thing has become so tedious that I have just put away my HD HomeRun tuner. I will get it out someday, maybe in a few years when the dust settles on encryption or the day comes when Silicon Dust is able to provide decryption on the current devices. Until then, it is just a piece of junk to me.
The TV stations in my closest market have reduced their transmit power so much that I can no longer receive ATSC 1.0 signals at all, and only one of the ATSC 3.0 signals is being transmitted unencrypted. The ATSC signals are being transmitted at a greater power level or they are more stable here due to the technology, but it doesn't really matter because no one can watch them. It is a completely stupid and ridiculous situation, which makes the device I paid money for completely useless.
Wow!! And I just bought a second Flex4k yesterday. Since I am going to be dropping my FiOS TV, within the next week or two.
Even though two of the five ATSC 3.0 stations in my area are encrypted (DC area), I need the extra tuners to make sure my Plex DVR can record without conflicts as well as allowing the HDHR DVR to be able to record without conflicts. Plus, it seemed like everything I read said that the Flex4K tuners has better reception than the HDHR ATSC 1.0 only tuners, in older model devices.
kyl416 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 18, 2024 3:02 pm
Their previous post mentioned Oklahoma City. In that market all of the participating signals come from the same general area, with only one or two blocks between the tower sites.
KFOR (NBC) is on the same tower as the lighthouse KAUT and is the ATSC 1.0 host of 43.1 CW. Prior to the market's October 2020 Next Gen launch, KFOR moved to KAUT's tower in June 2019 because they outright own that tower, however KFOR is still using the same RF number they've had since they first signed on their transitional DTV signal in 1999.
KOCO (ABC) is on the same tower and signal they've had since 2010 and isn't hosting any of KAUT's channels
KOKH (FOX) is on the same tower and signal they've had since 2004 and is the ATSC 1.0 host of 43.2 Rewind and 43.3 Ion Mystery
KOCB (Ind) is on the same tower and signal they've had since 2006 and is the ATSC 1.0 host of 43.4 Cozi
If they are in OKC and lost stations that haven't changed anything in the past 2 decades, odds are something else is going on with their setup that needs to be addressed. i.e. a failed amp or power inserter, loose connectors, the antenna shifted positions during a windy storm, etc
It's similar for Nashville, TN too. Even before ATSC 3.0, stations were close by, and their backups, were usually a few hundred feet apart. There are a few that are far from each other. But most areas I've looked at seem to use a "tower farm" approach. The downside is what you posted. Whether it's 1.0, 3.0, or 3.0 encrypted. Radio is radio. if it gets taken off air for some reason. It takes most all on the same tower. Especially if they are multiplexing, like they do with 1.0, and the sub-channels.
Nashville is a huge pain for OTA with CBS and Fox up north, NBC to the west, and ABC and PBS to the south. Some markets had station owners/engineers with the good sense to get together during the DTV transition and agree to consolidate to a single broadcast site so make things easier for viewers, but Nashville wasn't one of them.
My closest TV market is Oklahoma City. In the days of analog, we could receive a perfect signal at my location 70 miles away with a decent antenna. And for a while, digital was perfectly receivable as well. I realize this is a significant distance from the transmitters but with Oklahoma's relatively flat terrain, TV signals can travel long distances in most instances.
Then something changed, ATSC 1.0 is not receivable much at all now. I don't know what changed but something did, so I have to assume that transmit power was reduced for some reason. It could be all the tower shuffling and moving transmitters to shorter towers was what caused the loss of signal. When the ATSC 3.0 signals were turned on, the Oklahoma City market was one of the first in the country to get it, reception came back, all the 3.0 signals are fine and very stable with no drop-outs at all. All of them were in the clear, unencrypted. Now only the Fox station is in the clear, all the others are using encryption and there is currently no way to watch them.
I don't know what tower is being used for the ATSC 3.0 signals, maybe it is the tallest one. The CBS station uses a 1576' tower and is not participating in the ATSC 3.0 transmissions, but their ATSC 1.0 signal is completely gone, it has not been receivable here for over a year.
gore wrote: ↑Wed Mar 20, 2024 4:49 am so I have to assume that transmit power was reduced for some reason.
Nothing changed with OKC's ATSC 1.0 channels, most of them are using the same signals that they've had since the DTV transition since they weren't assigned new RF numbers during the repack. The one station that changed tower sites did so over a year before your market's 2020 NextGen launch. Stations are required to file an engineering STA with the FCC if they operate at different parameters for more than 30 days, and in a major city like Oklahoma City the FCC definitely would have been aware of it by now if all of their major network stations have been operating at reduced power that long without notifing them.
Odds are something happened with your antenna setup, but we would need a lot more details about your setup to help you troubleshoot. There are many points of failure on an antenna setup, like the preamps/power inserters, broken splitters, water ingress on the cable or connector, heavy winds messing up the aim of your antenna, etc.
In addition to what's already been said/suggested, at 70 miles, you're right at the edge of what's possible due to the curvature of the earth. I wouldn't expect perfect signals regardless of how much effort you put into your setup.
gore wrote: ↑Wed Mar 20, 2024 4:49 am
My closest TV market is Oklahoma City. In the days of analog, we could receive a perfect signal at my location 70 miles away with a decent antenna. And for a while, digital was perfectly receivable as well. I realize this is a significant distance from the transmitters but with Oklahoma's relatively flat terrain, TV signals can travel long distances in most instances.
Then something changed, ATSC 1.0 is not receivable much at all now. I don't know what changed but something did, so I have to assume that transmit power was reduced for some reason. It could be all the tower shuffling and moving transmitters to shorter towers was what caused the loss of signal. When the ATSC 3.0 signals were turned on, the Oklahoma City market was one of the first in the country to get it, reception came back, all the 3.0 signals are fine and very stable with no drop-outs at all. All of them were in the clear, unencrypted. Now only the Fox station is in the clear, all the others are using encryption and there is currently no way to watch them.
I don't know what tower is being used for the ATSC 3.0 signals, maybe it is the tallest one. The CBS station uses a 1576' tower and is not participating in the ATSC 3.0 transmissions, but their ATSC 1.0 signal is completely gone, it has not been receivable here for over a year.
Because your timeline of events goes all the way back to analog and you didn't note any changes on your system, I'm willing to bet a doughnut that you need a LTE filter.
aaronwt wrote: ↑Mon Mar 18, 2024 3:13 pm
Wow!! And I just bought a second Flex4k yesterday. Since I am going to be dropping my FiOS TV, within the next week or two.
Even though two of the five ATSC 3.0 stations in my area are encrypted (DC area), I need the extra tuners to make sure my Plex DVR can record without conflicts as well as allowing the HDHR DVR to be able to record without conflicts. Plus, it seemed like everything I read said that the Flex4K tuners has better reception than the HDHR ATSC 1.0 only tuners, in older model devices.
The DC ATSC 3 stations seem to have ruined the reception of ABC 7.1 for me. Good thing 107.1 is still unencrypted!
cncb wrote: ↑Wed Mar 20, 2024 2:11 pmThe DC ATSC 3 stations seem to have ruined the reception of ABC 7.1 for me. Good thing 107.1 is still unencrypted!
WHUT's UHF 33 signal switching to ATSC 3.0 has nothing to do with WJLA's VHF 7 signal beyond them picking up the ATSC 1.0 simulcasts, which wouldn't affect the transmitter output. WJLA's VHF 7 signal is operating at the same parameters it has had since 2011, if nothing's wrong with your VHF capable antenna setup, odds are you have a local noise interference issue impacting VHF reception. This could be caused by poorly shielded electronics like off brand power adapters, cheap LED bulbs, solar panel inverters, among other things.
aaronwt wrote: ↑Mon Mar 18, 2024 3:13 pm
Wow!! And I just bought a second Flex4k yesterday. Since I am going to be dropping my FiOS TV, within the next week or two.
Even though two of the five ATSC 3.0 stations in my area are encrypted (DC area), I need the extra tuners to make sure my Plex DVR can record without conflicts as well as allowing the HDHR DVR to be able to record without conflicts. Plus, it seemed like everything I read said that the Flex4K tuners has better reception than the HDHR ATSC 1.0 only tuners, in older model devices.
The DC ATSC 3 stations seem to have ruined the reception of ABC 7.1 for me. Good thing 107.1 is still unencrypted!
It's still fine here. Actually a very strong signal with 7.1. But it's CBS 9.1 that is crap now. When they were on UHF they were my strongest station. But now, on VHF, they are my weakest. The ATSC 3.0 channels also have a strong signal here in Woodbridge. But 40%(2 out of 5) of them are encrypted now. I wonder if that will increase to 60% or higher soon.
kyl416 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 20, 2024 2:27 pm
WHUT's UHF 33 signal switching to ATSC 3.0 has nothing to do with WJLA's VHF 7 signal beyond them picking up the ATSC 1.0 simulcasts, which wouldn't affect the transmitter output. WJLA's VHF 7 signal is operating at the same parameters it has had since 2011
joblo wrote: ↑Wed Mar 20, 2024 2:59 pm
If you are close enough to the low power WDCN 3.0 transmitter in Merrifield, VA, the local interference could be a WDCN second harmonic.
I guess it was just a coincidence, then, and something else is going on. I am not anywhere near WDCN. If WJLA starts encrypting the ATSC 3 signal, I guess I am SOL. I might try YouTube TV anyways, due to this whole debacle (first AC4 audio and now encryption).
jasonl wrote: ↑Tue Mar 19, 2024 4:46 pm
Nashville is a huge pain for OTA with CBS and Fox up north, NBC to the west, and ABC and PBS to the south. Some markets had station owners/engineers with the good sense to get together during the DTV transition and agree to consolidate to a single broadcast site so make things easier for viewers, but Nashville wasn't one of them.
I'm West about 35 miles in Dickson, they're far enough apart to cause issues (if the wind blows, it's enough to cause problems if you center your aim) and close enough at that distance to make it difficult to combine antennas. The ATSC 3.0 was wonderful (due to the multipath) until the majority started enabling DRM.
