Encryption

[nickk]

So if currently only decryption to hdmi is allowed, then is it allowed to re-transmit the unchanged encrypted stream over the network?

The player device receiving that content is not allowed to decrypt it. The player device is required to verify the source.

[drmpeg]

The FCC has posted a document that seeks comment on the NAB proposal to sunset ATSC 1.0.

https://docs.fcc.gov/public/attachments/DA-25-314A1.pdf

From the document:

"Also, the Commission has received thousands of consumer comments objecting to broadcasters employing the use of Digital Rights Management encryption on their ATSC 3.0 signals because the complaints state that such action has resulted in the consumer’s inability to receive programming despite having purchased an ATSC 3.0 enabled device. What steps can or should the industry and/or the Commission take to ensure broadcasters are able to protect their content and signal, while also ensuring viewers are able to continue to view a station’s free over-the-air signal in ATSC 3.0 just as they do today?"

It may be useful for SiliconDust to submit a comment on exactly how A3SA has made gateway devices impossible.

[danieljlevine]

SD would hopefully mention the slew of devices that support reasonable streaming encryption all the way to the end device, but isn’t Widevine, that should be permitted by the A3SA for transport and is currently in use for streaming.

[NatHillIV]

SD would hopefully mention the slew of devices that support reasonable streaming encryption all the way to the end device, but isn’t Widevine, that should be permitted by the A3SA for transport and is currently in use for streaming.

I don't understand this. Can you clarify for me? Are you saying other methods besides Widevine need approval?

[Cabal]

SD would hopefully mention the slew of devices that support reasonable streaming encryption all the way to the end device, but isn’t Widevine, that should be permitted by the A3SA for transport and is currently in use for streaming.

I don't understand this. Can you clarify for me? Are you saying other methods besides Widevine need approval?

I think he's referring to DRM-enabled streaming services that work across a variety of DRM methods (Netflix, etc).

[danieljlevine]

Yeah, I guess what I’m getting at is Apple has their own DRM technology, which I’m guessing is fine to deliver the high quality video and sound content to their devices, but it’s not Google’s Widevine. It would be great if Network streaming devices could use “equivalent” available encryption technologies to deliver the media securely to them instead of using only one option.

This is so you could watch DRM channels on Roku, Apple (TVos, iOS, iPad OS), Windows, etc. which are totally up in the air, despite having existing solutions that could be used. I’m assuming they are equivalent (at least in some cases) to the Widevine solution, or content providers wouldn’t be confident streaming their content to these devices. I know in some cases, there are restrictions that don’t permit me to connect my HDMI to my device and share the screen to my TV. But I just want to watch where I want to watch non-DRM channels sooner rather than later.

SD would probably have to say whether this would help with the issue they point out in the first message of this thread or not, which is beyond their control.

[DrSmith]

Unfortunately this does not seem to be an issue with WideVine vs. PlayReady vs. FairPlay. The A3SA has had several years to make progress. It is pretty clear that they do not want gateway devices of any kind on ATSC 3.0 DRM reception. They basically delay, delay, delay. I'm pretty sure SD has been ready to move forward on any and all DRM tech. A3SA has never fully defined the goalposts for gateway makers. A3SA is unwilling to test anything SD is more than ready to provide.

[vandyman]

The whole point of DRM is prevent recording.

My question is.
What TV content do people record nowadays?

[DSperber]

The whole point of DRM is prevent recording.

My question is.
What TV content do people record nowadays?

Anything at all that you are unavailable (or prefer not) to watch when it airs. ANYTHING!

That is the entire point of VCR/DVR for personal use... to allow the viewer to record anything when it is on because you may want to watch it, and then to possibly watch that recording in the future if/when you ever actually want to watch and now have the time to watch.

Addresses the human condition of not always being available to watch something "live" day or night (and with its commercials adding significant extra viewing time), or simply not wanting to watch something "live" (and with commercials).

Having a recording offers the option to use "trick" features (like pause, REW, FF, etc.) to skip around through the recording, for any reason you might have. This is something which cannot be done when watching "live".

Also affords the option to keep (and not delete) the recorded content for as long as you might want to, for possible re-viewing multiple times.

This is "personal use", as I see it.

NOTE: furthermore, ideally the live-view/recording/playback system should support "live-view/record through a gateway shared tuner/server system, in order to watch live/recorded anywhere at anytime on any client TV in the home". Start watching here, continue watching there. Total viewer flexibility, on any TV, live-view or record/playback. Again, "personal use".

(live-view/recorded availability on ANY NON-TV CLIENT DEVICE IN THE HOME OTHER THAN A TV is a terrific goal, but just being able to have live-view/recorded ability through any true physical TV in the home at any time is the absolute minimum acceptable requirement for "personal use")

[vandyman]

Thanks for all that info.
But there is no reason to record Ota these days for me.
Okay maybe the reruns of Roseanne.

[Cabal]

The whole point of DRM is prevent recording.

My question is.
What TV content do people record nowadays?

I am usually not awake when my local PBS airs new This Old House/Ask This Old House episodes at 4 AM.

[Lost Dog]

The whole point of DRM is prevent recording.

My question is.
What TV content do people record nowadays?

100% of the OTA we watch is recorded. We don't care about sports so that is probably the only "live" content that is really out there and it just doesn't matter to us. There are a small number of TV shows on OTA networks we enjoy but our life does not revolve around a TV schedule. We'll go weeks without watching anything, then catch up with a 3 or 4 episodes another week if it fits our time.

We don't subscribe to any of the streaming services that have OTA networks (ABC, NBC, etc) so recording and watching at our pace is the only way we'll bother seeing any of these shows. Additionally, as long as it's not a bandwidth starved channel, the OTA usually has much better picture quality than streaming or cable.

[ronj]

The FCC has posted a document that seeks comment on the NAB proposal to sunset ATSC 1.0.

https://docs.fcc.gov/public/attachments/DA-25-314A1.pdf

From the document:

"Also, the Commission has received thousands of consumer comments objecting to broadcasters employing the use of Digital Rights Management encryption on their ATSC 3.0 signals because the complaints state that such action has resulted in the consumer’s inability to receive programming despite having purchased an ATSC 3.0 enabled device. What steps can or should the industry and/or the Commission take to ensure broadcasters are able to protect their content and signal, while also ensuring viewers are able to continue to view a station’s free over-the-air signal in ATSC 3.0 just as they do today?"

It may be useful for SiliconDust to submit a comment on exactly how A3SA has made gateway devices impossible.

I totally agree. It would also be helpful for SiliconDust to post their comments to this forum as each of us can also comment personally on the FCC docket.

Lon is helping us do that - https://youtu.be/kQGH08rams8?si=43Ft5VPjIaR3P2pC

[ChesterCat]

The whole point of DRM is prevent recording.

My question is.
What TV content do people record nowadays?

Anything at all that you are unavailable (or prefer not) to watch when it airs. ANYTHING!

Having a recording offers the option to use "trick" features (like pause, REW, FF, etc.) to skip around through the recording, for any reason you might have. This is something which cannot be done when watching "live".

Actually watching live using other apps and silicon dust tuners does give you most of the capabilities you are discussing such as REW, FF, Pause etc. I use these all the time while watching live tv and really enjoy it. But these functions are enhanced when viewing a recording. So I don't really understand why you say it cannot be done watching live.

[DSperber]

Actually watching live using other apps and silicon dust tuners does give you most of the capabilities you are discussing such as REW, FF, Pause etc. I use these all the time while watching live tv and really enjoy it. But these functions are enhanced when viewing a recording. So I don't really understand why you say it cannot be done watching live.

Well, technically yes. At least for the duration of the "live buffer". And only if you don't accidentally press STOP or change channels, and thus lose the entire "live buffer".

But what I was really getting at is the full range of capability once you have the entire program recorded. For example, after recording a 5-hour golf match I can do whatever I want, wherever I want throughout the entire 5-hour recording, when watching the recording. I don't need to watch that 5-hour recording without interruptions of any kind.

There are limitations about what you can do when watching that 5-hour recording live... especially if it is not completed yet. And if you are right up to "real time", now you're forced to watch commercials that appear. No way to skip them when you are "real time" live.

Most significantly, I don't have to spend the full 5-hours of real time watching that 5-hour recording continuously if I don't want to. For sure I can probably spend 1/3 less total time watching any program since I can absolutely skip 100% of the commercials.

Also, I can interrupt, come back tomorrow to continue or re-watch or delete, etc.. I have absolutely no limitations on whatever I might want to do, whenever I might want to watch.