Encryption

[RickD_99]

Just last night I was working with a transport stream I captured in 2007 that contained a family member who was on the local news. I was working with it for a highlight reel to be shown at their memorial service. I have no faith that a DRM encumbered recording will even be viewable in ten years, let alone editable.

I get what you are saying and I realize that time shifting and archiving is important to many folks out there. Unfortunately it looks to me like encryption is here to stay whether we like it or not.

[joblo]

Scripps is encrypting in Las Vegas.

[decaym]

Antenna Man has a video out about DRM encryption specifically talking about the HDHomeRun. For those following here, it isn't anything really new, but it does give a good overview. One interesting point, external tuners may be able to get away from having an Internet connection, but it will require keys be embedded in the device. Obviously, devices sold so far don't have that. He also wasn't hopeful about Plex ever being able to support DRM due to conflict with their basic operational model (being able to view recorded content anywhere) against NextGen TV's wish to prevent remote viewing. The video contains a link to a page for listing DRM protected ATSC 3 channels.

[Phrede]

With having to be internet connected to speak with the AS3A licensing servers… will there be a registration window/grace period once authenticated to allow for power outages? How will that work? Furthermore, what assurances are in place to prevent the AS3A from cutting off access to these licensing servers from SD, Channels, etc?

You should not expect to be able to watch protected ATSC 3.0 content in the event of an internet outage.

All DRM schemes include kill switches. This includes WMDRM10 and DTCP1 used by CableCARD which we have been supporting for 12+ years without issue.

Nothing new really. You haven't been able to watch ATSC1.0 without an internet connection with the HDHR software for years. Not that it is listed anywhere you would notice prior to purchase. If you rely on the HDHR software and your internet goes down in an emergency you're SOL.

Other (not HDHR) sources claim internet connect is NOT a requirement with DRM. So now we have conflicting information on the subject. https://youtu.be/uxnW3ed9yR4

[Cabal]

Nothing new really. You haven't been able to watch ATSC1.0 without an internet connection with the HDHR software for years. Not that it is listed anywhere you would notice prior to purchase. If you rely on the HDHR software and your internet goes down in an emergency you're SOL.

The Roku HDHomeRun app works great in disconnected mode, and SD has said they plan on bringing this functionality to their other apps. My previous setup (HDHR + tvheadend + Kodi) also worked fine in the absence of a working internet connection.

[nickk]

Nothing new really. You haven't been able to watch ATSC1.0 without an internet connection with the HDHR software for years. Not that it is listed anywhere you would notice prior to purchase. If you rely on the HDHR software and your internet goes down in an emergency you're SOL.

As Cabal noted we added offline support to the Roku app. You will see this feature on our other app platforms later this year.

Other (not HDHR) sources claim internet connect is NOT a requirement with DRM. So now we have conflicting information on the subject. https://youtu.be/uxnW3ed9yR4

The A3SA rules have changed recently.

Televisions are required (and have always been required) to use L1 keys and work offline.

Non-televisions can operate L3 and get authorization via the internet. This used to be the requirement, but with the rule change non-televisions have the choice of doing L1 (no-internet) or L3 (internet).

For video gateway products like the HDHomeRun L1 isn't useful as the rules for L1 require DTCP2 encryption across your private network and DTCP2 is not supported by Windows, Mac, Android, Roku Fire TV, Apple TV, XBox, iOS, LG, or well, anything We are therefore forced to require internet for ATSC 3.0 protected content.

[pkscout]

Non-televisions can operate L3 and get authorization via the internet. This used to be the requirement, but with the rule change non-televisions have the choice of doing L1 (no-internet) or L3 (internet).

Seems like the onboard L1 would be useful for converters connected directly to TVs and a DVR connected directly to a TV that will only play the content on the TV to which it is connected. So basically a TiVo from 20 years ago. Congrats to the A3SA on regressing our technology 20 years so that the free to air TV streams can be "protected."

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[MikeBear]

https://youtu.be/NNTc5OWrDic

[IRJ]

Ok I have a "leading question" but first I would like to say that I have used SD and HDHR devices for years and have been very pleased with both the hardware and software and support provided by all Team HDHR. Thanks.

I note that SD does not have native hardware support for AC4 Audio and there is the need for DRM support in HDHR because some stations around the country are just starting roll out DRM.
With all this in mind I note that HDHR will come out with software to ensure our existing Hardware will seamlessly accept DRM Thanks! That's excellent as I had not previously known for sure this was even possible in the existing devices..
But does SD have in mind a future hardware product to naturally incorporate DRM and perhaps AC4? And perhaps make a 4 tuner ATSC 3 tuner?

I accept that it was not possible to incorporate DRM when HDHR and their 4K tuners were first rolled out, but all hardware has a finite time limit so will new hardware sometime in the foreseeable future be a possibility? Sorry to put you on the spot.
Thanks. Love our products and the high level of after sales support.
Ian

[signcarver]

SD does not make any client devices and its the client device's responsibility to support AC-4 (and SD offers online decoding capability for most clients that don't).

Though personally I would love to see SD come out with such device (actually 2, a tuner with hdmi and an android client device to hook up to the TVs), many will perceive that as abandoning support of the other devices regardless of how much they would state otherwise. But I do think the benefits to the average consumer such as plug and play as any "normal" device and the potential for L1 to L1 streaming and not "needing" internet for the hdmi unit, would outweigh those concerns. With the **** at such a low preorder price, it may be hard to justify a 2-4 tuner "Flex 4K+" at over $250 and I would hope such would also come with four 3.0 tuners rather than the current 2x2 (or 2x4 depending on how one views it as there are 4 atsc (non-3) capable tuners but I don't like implying 6 tuners)

There are many client devices that can support ac4... many of the latest android/fire boxes do (was hoping the latest onn would but unfortunately they went with an older chip where most variants wont), Most modern LG TVs also do (though with that platform the app is restricted to LG's player which has some other playback/discovery limitations) as well as the latest roku's (again player issues with some content and though I wouldn't touch a roku for (broadcast) TV content they may actually be in a better place to work with a more "native" ATSC 3.0 particularly with using DASH rather than TS but the devices currently output a TS for most to be compatible with more/existing platforms).

[zippy]

It's like a MMA match.

How many ATSC 3.0 stations can turn on DRM before SD releases decryption.

This morning many people are waking up to find that Comcast has added content protection to encrypt some of its NBC Universal-owned stations. These stations include owned by Hearst ABC WCVB in Boston and Comcast’s NBC 10 in Boston.

[NedS]

Ok I have a "leading question" but first I would like to say that I have used SD and HDHR devices for years and have been very pleased with both the hardware and software and support provided by all Team HDHR. Thanks.

I note that SD does not have native hardware support for AC4 Audio and there is the need for DRM support in HDHR because some stations around the country are just starting roll out DRM.
With all this in mind I note that HDHR will come out with software to ensure our existing Hardware will seamlessly accept DRM Thanks! That's excellent as I had not previously known for sure this was even possible in the existing devices..
But does SD have in mind a future hardware product to naturally incorporate DRM and perhaps AC4? And perhaps make a 4 tuner ATSC 3 tuner?

I accept that it was not possible to incorporate DRM when HDHR and their 4K tuners were first rolled out, but all hardware has a finite time limit so will new hardware sometime in the foreseeable future be a possibility? Sorry to put you on the spot.
Thanks. Love our products and the high level of after sales support.
Ian

To clarify, DRM/encryption is already supported in the hardware for as much as it can be. The HDHomeRun, as a gateway product, is only one component of the system. The playback device (smart TV, phone, laptop, streaming box, etc) also has to be certified and all that, and that is the step we are on now. The HDHomeRun tuner will never decrypt the video on the device itself. The video has to remain encrypted until it reaches the playback device. There really isn't a way to make a newer gateway product that would work differently, unless A3SA changes the rules, which seems highly unlikely at this time.

As for AC-4, again, it's something we leave to the playback device. As time goes on, AC-4 will likely become as common as AC-3, and most people won't even use our internet-based transcoding service. The HDHomeRun is simply a data gateway, unburdened by having to support specific formats. It's just data to the HDHomeRun. It's like why your router doesn't have to support a streaming radio service, rather your cellphone needs an app, or something like that. The HDHomeRun is like the router, it only handles the data, and the playback device is what supports the actual content.

[zippy]

If the SD application is installed on a android clent that is TEE and has it's own A3SA certificate and connects tothe TV via HDMI will the SD app be smart enough to use the client'S A3SA, widevine L1 and not need the interneT

[joblo]

To clarify, DRM/encryption is already supported in the hardware for as much as it can be. The HDHomeRun, as a gateway product, is only one component of the system. The playback device (smart TV, phone, laptop, streaming box, etc) also has to be certified and all that, and that is the step we are on now.

Just to clarify further, you're not saying that the certified HDHR app can only run on a certified "NextGen" TV, right? That would rather defeat the whole purpose for which most people bought your "4K" device, i.e. so they wouldn't have to buy a "NextGen" TV. So when all the steps are complete, people will be able to run a "certified" version of your app on all the same hardware where the uncertified version now works for content that is not "protected", right?

The HDHomeRun tuner will never decrypt the video on the device itself. The video has to remain encrypted until it reaches the playback device. There really isn't a way to make a newer gateway product that would work differently, unless A3SA changes the rules, which seems highly unlikely at this time.

Well, clearly, nobody can force SD to decrypt video on its own product if it doesn't want to. But I wouldn't bet on a3sa rules remaining static forever. I said previously the rules would have to change and they did. I expect it will be a while before they change again, but never is a long time, and a3sa may be forced by market realities to adapt again at some point, just like all the rest of us.

As for AC-4, again, it's something we leave to the playback device. As time goes on, AC-4 will likely become as common as AC-3

Well, that may depend on whether NextGen TV succeeds in the marketplace, which, at this point, is far from guaranteed, imo.

[jxxaxxy]

I would assume that they said the next step they are on means the HD Home Run app part of it on those devices.