Encryption

[nickk]

When encryption/DRM is successfully implemented, will all of my DRM viewing habits (live and recorded) be sent to a non-SD third party?

Will SD be relaying those requests on our behalf?

DRM playback is authorized by A3SA. The player connects to A3SA directly (not relayed by SD). The DRM information sent is from the broadcast which typically won't change for each TV show so the information tells them the channel you are watching but not the show you are watching,

[pkscout]

When encryption/DRM is successfully implemented, will all of my DRM viewing habits (live and recorded) be sent to a non-SD third party?

Will SD be relaying those requests on our behalf?

DRM playback is authorized by A3SA. The player connects to A3SA directly (not relayed by SD). The DRM information sent is from the broadcast which typically won't change for each TV show so the information tells them the channel you are watching but not the show you are watching,

I'm not sure I want to get too deep down this rabbit hole, but it seems like if the A3SA knows what channel you are watching and knows what time you are watching it (based on the request time for the key) that it would be pretty trivial to map that to the show. The request wouldn't even need a timezone. You could figure that out from the channel (since they are in knowable and unchanging locations). Seems like it would be easy from this to slip from encryption into viewing habit tracking. Which is another reason I feel like the internet requirement for decryption is really bad for consumers.

[zippy]

So if SD asks A3SA for a decrypt key to start watching a channel, how does A3SA know when you stopped watching that channel and/or even exited the SD app to use another OTT product.

[nickk]

So if SD asks A3SA for a decrypt key to start watching a channel, how does A3SA know when you stopped watching that channel and/or even exited the SD app to use another OTT product.

They don't. A3SA also doesn't know if you are watching live vs a recording if within a day or two of when it was recorded. They only care about abuse.

Broadcasters on the other hand - there is a whole other thing for information and targeted advertising injection that we do not implement (but your ATSC 3.0 TV does).

[Dinozero]

Nickk,

Sorry to hop in here I’m brand new to this party. But I’ve read through this whole thread…

I really want to order your 4K flex product. I feel like it’s everything that I’m looking for right now. I’ve had it in my shopping cart all day but been trying to catch up on everything.

I just wanted to know if you “still“ feel confident that this product will eventually be able to stream the encrypted stuff to players down the road? Or is it likely it will require a new piece of hardware ?

Thanks for all your communication with the customers.

[nickk]

I just wanted to know if you “still“ feel confident that this product will eventually be able to stream the encrypted stuff to players down the road? Or is it likely it will require a new piece of hardware ?

Confirming, all 4K HDHomeRun models (including the first 4K models that) will stream protected content after a firmware upgrade.

Nick

[Dinozero]

That’s awesome. Thank you for that.

Looks like I got a new toy coming in the mail.

[vebix]

Confirming, all 4K HDHomeRun models (including the first 4K models that) will stream protected content after a firmware upgrade.

This means it will pass the protected content on to whatever app is requesting it, but it's still on that app to handle decryption/protection for playback, correct?

[jxxaxxy]

Thats my understanding.

[nickk]

Confirming, all 4K HDHomeRun models (including the first 4K models that) will stream protected content after a firmware upgrade.

This means it will pass the protected content on to whatever app is requesting it, but it's still on that app to handle decryption/protection for playback, correct?

Pretty much. The HDHomeRun tuner hardware is involved in DRM checks but the general concept is the stream is sent to the player and the player requests the license.

[gtb]

the horse has already left the barn

If the FCC really cared, over a year ago, they could have required all new TV's support ATSC 3.0 and encryption not turned on until there were multiple set top boxes that supported ATSC 3.0 and encryption.

The FCC (while that have many other responsibilities) primarily is interested in the ability for citizens to be able to access and view OTA broadcasts via their TV in their residence. 100% of the currently available ATSC 3.0 ("NextGen") TV's with current firmware(*) can access the broadcasts, encrypted, or not. From the FCC's responsibilities, "mission accomplished".

There are (to my current understanding) 3 organizations who announced plans to offer a ATSC 3.0 OTA DVR offering, but the FCC has no responsibilities for their offerings. In the case of all three, encryption happened sooner than those organizations expected, but again, not the FCC's concern.



(*) There was a specific manufactuer which required a firmware update.

[gtb]

you should ask that question to Channels directly (and when you get a response, share it back here to others as a courtesy), as only they know (and could provide you their plans and schedules) if they intend to provide a protected content path in their solution (or perhaps just launch the hdhomerun apps for playing such content?). Nothing SD does will prevent Channels from implementing the specifications, should they choose to do so.

That's highly disingenuous since Channels can't promise to implement something that is yet to be defined.

It would appear that you are unfamiliar with how these industry consortiums work (or you do, and are a member or licensee under an NDA which prevents you from publicly talking about what you do know).

While this is just an overview, it should help others to better understand before followup.

In the case of A3SA the organization has both founders, that guide (control) the organization and its specifications, and what are called adopters (licensees) that essentially agree to follow/implement the specifications in order to be provided with certification keys needed to implement the specifications. Once you are a licensee, you have access (under various forms of NDA) to all the specifications. You can also propose new specifications (which SD apparently has, which were accepted). While many of these organizations provide a subset or overview of the specifications to the public, it is not strictly a requirement to do so. The NDA typically prevents public dissemination of even the various proposals, let alone the specifications. by adopters (so one cannot know the details until one becomes an adopter).

In the case of A3SA, SilicondDust is an adopter.  And while the A3SA website will always be trailing, neither Channels, Plex, Emby, nor Kodi are currently identified as adopters.  Until they are, they do not have access to the specifications (and you could too have such access, should you become an adopter).

FWIW, Channels recently informed their users that NBCU channels are no longer recordable via TVE ( https://getchannels.com/2023/04/11/nbc-tve/ ) because (based on the reporting) NBCU increased the required protection requirements (they are not expected to be the last of the big content owners to do so, but just as with ATSC 3.0 encryption, one does not know of the plans until it happens).

That has nothing to do with this.

It is highly relevant, as it speaks to choices about implementing a protected path content solution.

It is not looking positive for Channels deciding to implement a protected content path in their solution as if they were going to do it one would have expected that that plan be mentioned in their post, but, again, that is a question you should ask of Channels (Channels control their own destiny).

This is FUD.

Not quite.  Only fools, or those still in the first stage of grief (i.e. denial) ignore the writing.  Channels has now twice explicitly stated that they are not going to provide a protected path solution.  And two "No's" in a row is strongly indicative of their plans.  While they clearly can choose to change their approach at any time, they have not indicated they plan to do so by any public statement.

Have you managed to contact them yet, and what have they committed to you?

SiliconDust, who will provide a solution with/for their ecosystem, makes their APIs available to other 3rd parties, but they are not responsible for making others (Channels, Plex, etc.) use/implement them.

Do you work for SiliconDust and speak for them, or do you just like to pretend you do?

While paraphrased, I was simply repeating the statements that SiliconDust has repeatedly made, primarily to help the many here who seem to have the memory of a pigeon (or are unwilling to read the 20 pages of posts), and seem to need to hear the same facts again and again (or perhaps it is a selective memory that refuses to accept what they do not like to hear?).

[joblo]

Years in the future covers just about any amount of time.

Yes, it does.

The FCC seems to want to speed things up.
https://docs.fcc.gov/public/attachments ... 2605A1.pdf

The FCC is belatedly addressing some things that should have been addressed previously, like "the the final conditions needed
to complete the national transition to ATSC 3.0; and consideration of the post-transition regulatory landscape."

However, I don't see any significant change in FCC attitudes re 3.0, as the last paragraph of that press release makes clear:

The FCC adopted rules in 2017 to support a voluntary, market-by-market rollout of ATSC 3.0,
which first became available in 2020 in Las Vegas. Today, NextGen TV is available to
households in about 60% of U.S. markets. But for consumers to access NextGen TV signals
requires new, ATSC 3.0-compatible televisions or reception devices which pose important cost
and accessibility challenges. The FCC is committed to working with industry and non-profit
partners to ensure any transition is smooth.

In other words, it is still a "voluntary", market-driven transition, that requires consumers to spend a lot of money for new TVs or other devices, and the FCC is committed to facilitating "any" -- NOT "the" -- transition that industry and consumers may voluntarily support.

I see nothing there that suggests a transition must happen at all if the market doesn't want it and support it.

[joblo]

A3SA also doesn't know if you are watching live vs a recording if within a day or two of when it was recorded.

So they are going to change keys every few days, and the app will have to send the recording date to a3sa to make sure it gets the proper key, which will make expiration of playback rights easy to implement and enforce.

Frankly, the more I see of this the less interested I become. I hope that SD will always indicate in the config GUI or its app which channels are "protected" so that I can easily avoid watching and recording them. I'll stick to 1.0 channels and unencrypted 3.0 channels as long as they are available, and if/when there are no more such channels, I will abandon OTA altogether, and just get my TV entirely over the internet.

[gtb]

I see nothing there that suggests a transition must happen at all if the market doesn't want it and support it.

The two most likely end transitions is what I call the ATSC 1.0 reverse lighthouse (where there remains an ATSC 1.0 transmitter for all existing stations (so all existing TV's continue to work), while many existing stations move to ATSC 3.0 broadcasts), or the FCC offers a rebate on the (at this point mythical) ATSC 3.0 to HDMI converter box so that there needs to be no remaining ATSC 1.0 transmitters.

At least a number of station owners are pushing the FCC to offer such a rebate so they can reclaim that last ATSC 1.0 transmitter, but the actual endgame is likely to not be clear for another few years.