HDHomerun DVR force default use for specific Tuner

Help and support for HDHomeRun DVR and HDHomeRun software for Windows 10, Mac, Android, XBox, etc.
Jimmersd
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HDHomerun DVR force default use for specific Tuner

Post by Jimmersd » Fri Sep 13, 2019 6:22 pm

I am still using a WMC system for a couple TVs and the HDHomerun DVR for one in my office. I have 2 Prime tuners and have had to replace one recently and am having problems getting WMC to recognize that the new tuner is available. Both the WMC and HDHR seem to want to default to the same tuner. Is there a way to force the HDHR system to select a specific tuner as it's first default for use?

jasonl
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Re: HDHomerun DVR force default use for specific Tuner

Post by jasonl » Sun Sep 15, 2019 1:08 pm

The DVR will always start with the lower-numbered device. There's no way to force a specific one to be used.

Jimmersd
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Re: HDHomerun DVR force default use for specific Tuner

Post by Jimmersd » Sun Sep 15, 2019 2:36 pm

Darn

Ken.F
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Re: HDHomerun DVR force default use for specific Tuner

Post by Ken.F » Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:13 pm

Jimmersd wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 2:36 pm
Darn
You can change the tuner priority in WMC.

Jimmersd
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Re: HDHomerun DVR force default use for specific Tuner

Post by Jimmersd » Sun Sep 15, 2019 6:16 pm

Ken.F wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:13 pm
Jimmersd wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 2:36 pm
Darn
You can change the tuner priority in WMC.
That's if the tuner is paired with WMC. I recently replaced a Prime and the reason I needed to do this is so WMC and HDHRDVR didn't fight for the same tuner. I rarely had that problem before.

Not in the mood right now to fight with resetting and reconfiguring WMC for liveTV and Playready.

mike808
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Re: HDHomerun DVR force default use for specific Tuner

Post by mike808 » Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:33 pm

jasonl wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 1:08 pm
The DVR will always start with the lower-numbered device. There's no way to force a specific one to be used.
What number? the serial number? I've got a Quattro and an older Extend. I'd prefer the DVR to use the Quattro tuners first (newer generation internals) over the Extend.
Or can I change the order of the tuners in the HDHR Config to force the "lower-numbered" device? Or is it a de-register and re-register the device kind of deal to determine the "order" (as in the order the device was registered to my account)?

neil459
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Re: HDHomerun DVR force default use for specific Tuner

Post by neil459 » Tue Sep 17, 2019 10:04 am

jasonl wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 1:08 pm
The DVR will always start with the lower-numbered device. There's no way to force a specific one to be used.
Well it should be just the reverse. It should use the highest serial number first as that will ensure that the most recent hardware is being used.

It makes absolutely so sense whatsoever to use the oldest hardware first. Did anybody actually think about this decision?

groundhog22
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Re: HDHomerun DVR force default use for specific Tuner

Post by groundhog22 » Tue Sep 17, 2019 12:41 pm

Prioritizing the lower deivce ID sets OTA boxes ahead of the Primes.

@Jimmersd -- For your case, one can simply disable (X out on the lower numbered device web page) all the channels that you do not want the HDDVR to use on the lower WMC device, and the DVR will only use the other device. If I remember correctly, WMC does not care about whether a channel is X-ed out or not and continue to use all channels from whatever device that it is paired with. The problem is, that it will cut you down to just 3 tuners for each DVR.

NedS
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Re: HDHomerun DVR force default use for specific Tuner

Post by NedS » Tue Sep 17, 2019 11:00 pm

neil459 wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 10:04 am
jasonl wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 1:08 pm
The DVR will always start with the lower-numbered device. There's no way to force a specific one to be used.
Well it should be just the reverse. It should use the highest serial number first as that will ensure that the most recent hardware is being used.

It makes absolutely so sense whatsoever to use the oldest hardware first. Did anybody actually think about this decision?
Higher Device IDs don't always mean newer hardware. Different number ranges are used for different product lines, so it would only mean newer for that specific product line. You can easily have a CONNECT Quatro that was built after a SCRIBE Quatro, or something like that. Quatro and Duos have their own number ranges but are made at the same time as their counterparts. Even the EXTEND started life out using 4th generation tuners, but newer produced units use 5th generation tuners, so you can't universally say if an EXTEND is "older" or on the same level as current CONNECT and SCRIBE tuners.

Forgetting all of that for a moment, the real reason using "newer" doesn't matter is because these are digital signals. If a 4th gen CONNECT works then it is getting the same signal, putting out the same video stream, as a brand new 5th gen unit.

If a tuner is having issues, for whatever reason, then the user is not going to want that channel/tuner available for recording at all.

neil459
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Re: HDHomerun DVR force default use for specific Tuner

Post by neil459 » Thu Sep 19, 2019 5:05 am

NedS wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 11:00 pm
neil459 wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 10:04 am
jasonl wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 1:08 pm
The DVR will always start with the lower-numbered device. There's no way to force a specific one to be used.
Well it should be just the reverse. It should use the highest serial number first as that will ensure that the most recent hardware is being used.

It makes absolutely so sense whatsoever to use the oldest hardware first. Did anybody actually think about this decision?
Higher Device IDs don't always mean newer hardware. Different number ranges are used for different product lines, so it would only mean newer for that specific product line. You can easily have a CONNECT Quatro that was built after a SCRIBE Quatro, or something like that. Quatro and Duos have their own number ranges but are made at the same time as their counterparts. Even the EXTEND started life out using 4th generation tuners, but newer produced units use 5th generation tuners, so you can't universally say if an EXTEND is "older" or on the same level as current CONNECT and SCRIBE tuners.

Forgetting all of that for a moment, the real reason using "newer" doesn't matter is because these are digital signals. If a 4th gen CONNECT works then it is getting the same signal, putting out the same video stream, as a brand new 5th gen unit.

If a tuner is having issues, for whatever reason, then the user is not going to want that channel/tuner available for recording at all.
Thanks for the clarification. But this just means that we need a way to set tuner priority because for my 3 CONNECTS it always selects the older tuner. And all 3 of my Connects show different stats even when connected to the same antenna. And my oldest CONNECT is the worst at receiving. So while your clarification makes sense theoretically, it does not correspond to the real world that I see. And just to be clear while the content of the signal is digital, the actual RF being received is analog and it appears, at least to me, that your RF circuits vary from device to device.

NedS
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Re: HDHomerun DVR force default use for specific Tuner

Post by NedS » Thu Sep 19, 2019 6:40 pm

neil459 wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 5:05 am
Thanks for the clarification. But this just means that we need a way to set tuner priority because for my 3 CONNECTS it always selects the older tuner. And all 3 of my Connects show different stats even when connected to the same antenna. And my oldest CONNECT is the worst at receiving. So while your clarification makes sense theoretically, it does not correspond to the real world that I see. And just to be clear while the content of the signal is digital, the actual RF being received is analog and it appears, at least to me, that your RF circuits vary from device to device.
The RF is digital as well. ATSC is a digital standard that replaced the analogs standard, NTSC.

What does "the worst at receiving" mean in this context? Are channels dropping out? If so, you should disable those channels on the tuner. Changing the recording priority is meaningless if a bad stream/channel/whatever is still available for recording at all. The better tuners could be held up by live TV viewing and then the older tuners could then be used for recording. If something is not working then *that* needs to be addressed, rather than convoluted workarounds.

Jimmersd
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Re: HDHomerun DVR force default use for specific Tuner

Post by Jimmersd » Thu Sep 19, 2019 7:10 pm

I think what Neil means to say is that the sensitivity of the tuners can vary from one to another. I have serviced TV receivers for many years and RF tuners do require a certain amount of 'magic' to peak properly. There can be variance between identical models. Granted things are a lot better than the old days but they still vary.

That said it would be nice to set priority of the tuners used.

NedS
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Re: HDHomerun DVR force default use for specific Tuner

Post by NedS » Thu Sep 19, 2019 7:26 pm

Jimmersd wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 7:10 pm
I think what Neil means to say is that the sensitivity of the tuners can vary from one to another. I have serviced TV receivers for many years and RF tuners do require a certain amount of 'magic' to peak properly. There can be variance between identical models. Granted things are a lot better than the old days but they still vary.

That said it would be nice to set priority of the tuners used.
I'm not a developer, so I can't say how doable these ideas would be, but a better solution IMO would be to allow the HDHomeRun unit to be blacklisted from recording while still being used for live TV, similar to how generation 3 and older units work.

Or, better yet, have the DVR software compare signal readings at the time of recording when there are multiple units that can provide the same channel, and automatically prioritize it based on that data. Maybe even having a cut off where the recording won't try with a bad/unusable signal, which is nice if you scanned channels and then your antenna got bumped, and you want to prevent garbled recordings, in addition to this situation.

neil459
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Re: HDHomerun DVR force default use for specific Tuner

Post by neil459 » Fri Sep 20, 2019 2:53 pm

NedS wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 6:40 pm
. . . .
The RF is digital as well. ATSC is a digital standard that replaced the analogs standard, NTSC. . . . .
Not really, an RF signal is an electromagnetic wave that varies continuously from zero through max amplitude through zero, through min amplitude and back to zero. The frequency with which it does this is the RF frequency. In order to convey information there are 2 things can happen to this signal. The amplitude can be varied and the frequency can be varied, both of which are called modulation. There is digital modulation used today, called 8VSB, and the old analog modulation. The result of the 8VSB modulation used today results in a digital signal and is able to carry more information than the old analog modulation. It is also less prone to certain types of signal disruption based on the digital protocol of the ATSC digital standard that allows the signal to recover from certain types of disruption.

But at the end of the day the RF signal is still analog and suffers from the same problems of RF signals used for other purposes. While the TV industry spends a lot of money convincing people that digital is better it may not be in certain circumstances. For example, now most TV stations are UHF and UHF is a lot worse than the old VHF when it comes to working in situations that are not line of sight. It is UHF because that is required to get the HD information content. But the RF itself is harder to get right, harder to handle, and more prone to dead spots and interference, and more problematic in low cost electronics handling the signal.

All three of my connects preform differently when connected to the same antenna, in the same physical location, using the same ethernet connection, connected to the same software. The only analog variable here is the RF handling in the front end. Sure once the signal is demodulated it is pure digital, but until then a lot can happen.

But the RF is not digital, the resulting demodulated data is digital. Just for completeness, "8VSB is an 8-level vestigial sideband modulation. In essence, it converts a binary stream into an octal representation by amplitude-shift keying a sinusoidal carrier to one of eight levels." See the bit about "sinusoidal carrier"? That is the analog RF carrier.

neil459
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Re: HDHomerun DVR force default use for specific Tuner

Post by neil459 » Fri Sep 20, 2019 4:18 pm

NedS wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 7:26 pm
Jimmersd wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 7:10 pm
I think what Neil means to say is that the sensitivity of the tuners can vary from one to another. I have serviced TV receivers for many years and RF tuners do require a certain amount of 'magic' to peak properly. There can be variance between identical models. Granted things are a lot better than the old days but they still vary.

That said it would be nice to set priority of the tuners used.
I'm not a developer, so I can't say how doable these ideas would be, but a better solution IMO would be to allow the HDHomeRun unit to be blacklisted from recording while still being used for live TV, similar to how generation 3 and older units work.

Or, better yet, have the DVR software compare signal readings at the time of recording when there are multiple units that can provide the same channel, and automatically prioritize it based on that data. Maybe even having a cut off where the recording won't try with a bad/unusable signal, which is nice if you scanned channels and then your antenna got bumped, and you want to prevent garbled recordings, in addition to this situation.
Yes these might be better. But, knowing how long it takes to get even simple changes into HDHomeRUN just give us the ability to specify which order to use the devices by serial number. A simple drop down that can be ordered. Easy peasy. Heck just put in some optional code that examines the configure file and if it finds a list of serial numbers HDHomeRun assigns programs to devices in the order of the list. Heck I could probably code this in a couple of hours without ever having worked on the code base.

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