Encryption

[jasonl]

Why broadcasters don't simply ditch the now long obsolete and inefficient MPEG-2 compression on the 1.0 signals and switch to MPEG-4 AVC to help alleviate the effects of the increased spectrum crunch caused by the creation of the 3.0 Lighthouse stations is beyond me.

There isn't enough money to be made making incremental improvements.

[gore]

To my eyes, the ATSC 3.0 version, while NOT 4K, is a better picture than the 1.0 version.
Probably many variables are involved, but in the Indianapolis market, that appears to be the case.

It is a better picture than 1.0 in my opinion. I only have one 3.0 signal available to watch in my area, the Fox affiliate, NBC and CBS are encrypted and the ABC affiliate does not have a 3.0 signal. The 1.0 signals are not receivable reliably where I live but the 3.0 signals are rock-solid. So it's just too bad that I cannot receive but the one signal using the HD HomeRun tuner, and there will evidently never be a solution to this problem. The Fox station's picture is fantastic for whatever reason, the encoding being used evidently makes it a crisper picture than the 1.0.

[willh20]

... The 1.0 signals are not receivable reliably where I live but the 3.0 signals are rock-solid. So it's just too bad that I cannot receive but the one signal using the HD HomeRun tuner, and there will evidently never be a solution to this problem.

I feel your pain. I am in the Houston area and KHOU CBS is still using VHF spectrum. I'm opposite side of the metro area from the broadcast tower and teetering on the edge with the 1.0 signal. 3.0 will come in perfectly, but not on the HDHomeRun Flex 4K because of the DRM

I guess I could invest in a tower and invest in more antenna equipment, but doesn't seem like a good investment nor trouble fighting with an HOA.

[tjp]

[/quote]

It is a better picture than 1.0 in my opinion. I only have one 3.0 signal available to watch in my area, the Fox affiliate, NBC and CBS are encrypted and the ABC affiliate does not have a 3.0 signal. The 1.0 signals are not receivable reliably where I live but the 3.0 signals are rock-solid. So it's just too bad that I cannot receive but the one signal using the HD HomeRun tuner, and there will evidently never be a solution to this problem. The Fox station's picture is fantastic for whatever reason, the encoding being used evidently makes it a crisper picture than the 1.0.
[/quote]

I agree. I was watching a live MLB game on Fox and while both the 1.0 and 3.0 were in 720p, the picture looked better on 3.0
Plus, the audio was also improved. I was running the audio through my AVR and the surround sound effect was handled better with 3.0

[gtb]

Why broadcasters don't simply ditch the now long obsolete and inefficient MPEG-2 compression on the 1.0 signals and switch to MPEG-4 AVC to help alleviate the effects of the increased spectrum crunch caused by the creation of the 3.0 Lighthouse stations is beyond me.

As I recall that in order to ensure interoperability the current regulations in the US require[0] ATSC 1.0 as initially approved (and that means MPEG-2) for the primary subchannel (more commonly the network affiliated subchannel) by the authorized full power stations, and while newer TVs may support newer codecs, there exist TVs in use that do not[1], and the FCC is not going to allow a change that would force people to buy new TVs (or adapters) unless there is some money available to help consumers continue to watch their programs.

As I recall, there are a small number of secondary subchannels being broadcast in H.264 across the country, but it is not especially common.

In the longer run, the station owners had planned for ATSC 3.0 as their primary transmitter, and a likely shared ATSC 1.0 lighthouse (and if you think compression artifacts look bad now, wait for all the network streams to be compressed into one ATSC 1.0 channel), so this was all just a short term interim issue for them.


[0] There is the waiver process for exceptions.

[1] Most major manufacturers TVs built starting around 2018 do, but the off-brand TVs had different schedules. While some people replace their TV every few years, some keep their TV for much longer.

[nickk]

AVC (h.264) is an approved codec valid for use by ATSC 1.0 stations. Some stations use it.

Edit - it is safe to say that all smart TVs support AVC. The old 2006-era converter boxes for tube TVs may not.

[kyl416]

It's not just converter boxes from the transition era. All of the previous models of one of your competitors network tuners don't support H264, even though their first model came out in the mid-2010s well after H264 was added as an optional part of ATSC 1.0. (It's the one that has since been purchased by a major broadcaster) And thanks to their post takeover model being locked down, those previous MPEG-2 only models are the only ones that work with 3rd party DVR software like Channels. Their previous development team also coded it so that the tuner ignores subchannels without MPEG-2 video, so you can't even watch them with 3rd party software that does support H264.

Over in the Chicago and NYC threads at AVS there are also a bunch of complaints involving popular TV models that came out in the 2010s now that some of their subchannels recently switched to H264. Like in NYC Rewind and Antenna are now H264 after WPIX converted to ATSC 3.0, and over in Chicago Comet and FaveTV are now H264 after WBBM converted. In other parts of the country Tegna and Univision have been using H264 for newly added subchannels.

[Trip]

I feel your pain. I am in the Houston area and KHOU CBS is still using VHF spectrum. I'm opposite side of the metro area from the broadcast tower and teetering on the edge with the 1.0 signal. 3.0 will come in perfectly, but not on the HDHomeRun Flex 4K because of the DRM

The CBS feed is mirrored on UHF via the KTBU RF33 signal. Virtual 11-11.

AVC (h.264) is an approved codec valid for use by ATSC 1.0 stations. Some stations use it.

Edit - it is safe to say that all smart TVs support AVC. The old 2006-era converter boxes for tube TVs may not.

The first statement is not accurate. The FCC has not formally approved the use of MPEG-4 for broadcast. Stations broadcasting in MPEG-4 are doing so as if they are datacasting under the ancillary/supplementary services rules. The FCC is explicitly not treating them as "broadcast" signals.

See, for example: https://enterpriseefiling.fcc.gov/datae ... 2f15b81221

I'm not persuaded the second statement is 100% accurate either. I think being a smart TV makes support significantly more likely, but to say "all" seems to be a step too far in my mind. I've heard reports of TVs with advanced functions that don't support MPEG-4 from broadcast, presumably because the code pointing those streams to the right decoder never got written, but I couldn't point you to a specific/proven example.

As I recall that in order to ensure interoperability the current regulations in the US require[0] ATSC 1.0 as initially approved (and that means MPEG-2) for the primary subchannel (more commonly the network affiliated subchannel) by the authorized full power stations, and while newer TVs may support newer codecs, there exist TVs in use that do not[1], and the FCC is not going to allow a change that would force people to buy new TVs (or adapters) unless there is some money available to help consumers continue to watch their programs.

As I recall, there are a small number of secondary subchannels being broadcast in H.264 across the country, but it is not especially common.

This statement is basically correct about MPEG-4, except that there have been no exception made to the primary stream MPEG-2 requirement anywhere.

- Trip

[AlbumMan]

Trip is aware of the short-lived sub (BizTV) using AVC in my market. The engineer removed it due to issues getting the EAS to work, which may or not be related.

[nickk]

AVC has been part of the ATSC 1.0 standard since 2008.

[Trip]

AVC has been part of the ATSC 1.0 standard since 2008.

But that doesn't mean the FCC has approved it for broadcasting. Which it has not. A/72, which is MPEG-4 video in 1.0, is not found in 73.682(d).

https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-47/c ... ion-73.682

- Trip

[nickk]

I think being a smart TV makes support significantly more likely, but to say "all" seems to be a step too far in my mind. I've heard reports of TVs with advanced functions that don't support MPEG-4 from broadcast, presumably because the code pointing those streams to the right decoder never got written, but I couldn't point you to a specific/proven example.

The thinking behind my statement...

1) The primary feature of a smart TV is the ability to run apps... predominantly for OTT streaming... and OTT streaming is predominantly AVC. It is a pretty safe presumption that smart TVs support AVC, at least for OTT content.

2) Many other countries use AVC for broadcast going back to at least 2008 (for example New Zealand introduced DVB-T in 2008 utilizing AVC). Television makers had to support broadcast AVC for other countries.

[nickk]

But that doesn't mean the FCC has approved it for broadcasting. Which it has not. A/72, which is MPEG-4 video in 1.0, is not found in 73.682(d).

https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-47/c ... ion-73.682

It may be a debatable question for the single-channel 480i requirement but stations are free to use AVC (or anything else) for the rest of their bandwidth.

[rkkeller]

[removed by moderator - see forum rules]

[hancox]

Lights still on here?

There has been significantly more banter on this forum about:

1) AVC vs MPEG2
2) An A3SA notice that was not applicate to any SD product, currently

...when compared to a now multi-year issue with encryption. Basically little to no development, per the changelogs, in months.

I fully expect this to get purged, but I'm starting to get worried we are in CableCard big tuner V2 hell now.