Encryption

[bakerbk64]

Long time lurker, but had a free moment so thought I'd chime in.

I bought an HDHR 4K Flex 4K about 5 months ago. I knew then that it could not decode encrypted channels but in my situation I currently don't care and will patiently wait for the day that it can.

Here's my situation...

I live in the Kansas City metropolitan area and can get strong ATSC 1.0 signals. I have a PLEX server and enjoy the fact that I get 4 more tuners from my HDHR along with my other 2 tuners for watching/recording simultaneous shows. The PLEX sever has better recording functionality (better guide, deleting commercials, etc.) than the HDHR recording capabilities, so I use my PLEX for recording. I can also use my PLEX to view my shows outside of my house. For watching live OTA broadcasts I really like the network tuner aspect of the HDHR and use it often to watch live shows especially sports. I also have a Hisense TV that has an ATSC 3.0 tuner and handles DRM just fine. With the Hisense I am able to compare the quality of the current state of ATSC 1.0 vs ATSC 3.0, and as everyone knows in this forum, there are very little if any quality differences since there is currently no 4K OTA content. I say all of this to reinforce the fact that I can patiently await for the day that the HDHR can handle DRM. ATSC 3.0 is such a mess and devoid of anything that makes it currently better than ATSC 1.0 that it doesn't bother me that I may have to wait a very long time for HD to allow me to view all ATSC 3.0 content.

Everyone's situation is different so this post isn't meant to diminish or belittle anyone else's situation. I just happen to be blessed with a situation that allows me to be patient through all of this.

[Phoenixfury]

Long time lurker, but had a free moment so thought I'd chime in.

I bought an HDHR 4K Flex 4K about 5 months ago. I knew then that it could not decode encrypted channels but in my situation I currently don't care and will patiently wait for the day that it can.

Here's my situation...

I live in the Kansas City metropolitan area and can get strong ATSC 1.0 signals. I have a PLEX server and enjoy the fact that I get 4 more tuners from my HDHR along with my other 2 tuners for watching/recording simultaneous shows. The PLEX sever has better recording functionality (better guide, deleting commercials, etc.) than the HDHR recording capabilities, so I use my PLEX for recording. I can also use my PLEX to view my shows outside of my house. For watching live OTA broadcasts I really like the network tuner aspect of the HDHR and use it often to watch live shows especially sports. I also have a Hisense TV that has an ATSC 3.0 tuner and handles DRM just fine. With the Hisense I am able to compare the quality of the current state of ATSC 1.0 vs ATSC 3.0, and as everyone knows in this forum, there are very little if any quality differences since there is currently no 4K OTA content. I say all of this to reinforce the fact that I can patiently await for the day that the HDHR can handle DRM. ATSC 3.0 is such a mess and devoid of anything that makes it currently better than ATSC 1.0 that it doesn't bother me that I may have to wait a very long time for HD to allow me to view all ATSC 3.0 content.

Everyone's situation is different so this post isn't meant to diminish or belittle anyone else's situation. I just happen to be blessed with a situation that allows me to be patient through all of this.

I look at it this way. Whether 3.0 bombs or not, we still have the best ATSC 1.0 tuners in a network tuner on the market. I had the Flex Quarto which displayed a noticable amount of macro blocking. (This is where video can appear blocking, especially with a lot of motion.) This is not as noticable with my Flex 4K. Reception also seems to be noticably increased too. I say it's worth the upgrade whether 3.0 takes off or not.

[danieljlevine]

In my use case in the Columbia, Maryland area, I liked the HDHR Flex 4K because I could place my antenna where I needed it and all my TVs and devices could watch using it. The basement TV benefits the most. But I also like sitting out front and on my deck in the back and watch shows on a tablet.

However much my ATSC 1.0 reception is improved over what is natively in both Samsung TVs by using the HDHR app on my FireStick 4Ks, the ATSC 3.0 reception is even better. I can watch both the ATSC 1.0 and 3.0 (non-DRM) channel on tablet and TV simultaneously to compare. So I’m not talking about resolution. I’m just talking about loss of signal. So, I can’t wait to see what happens when the ATSC 3.0 stations go to full power.

I also get a decent number of Washington, DC stations with the same antenna pointed the same way (ATSC 1.0 and 3.0 non-DRM). Those are harder to get to come in well. So I’m excited for those to go to full power someday as well.

Problem is when the ATSC 1.0 channel doesn’t want to be nice and the ATSC 3.0 channel has DRM.

I’m wondering if PBS might be the first station to deliver 4K or Dolby Atmos content in my area. At least aid get to see that and I have Dolby Atmos 5.1.2 output ready, not getting used by Amazon anymore. :-/

So yeah, I guess from me I get better signal quality from ATSC 1.0 now, even better from the ATSC 3.0 I can receive (and is not DRM) with the expectation to receive them even better at full power from the Baltimore transmitters, Washington DC transmitters, and possibly some from even further away when they are at full power.


So my real question for SD is what new features are you developing in the software for the existing users? I don’t think zone seen anything really new for a while. I’m guessing you’re not working on DRM since there’s nothing for you to do to make progress.

Things I’d like to see:

1. I’d like some information regarding the signal quality and stream properties for the channel (like Channels produces) in your app. I’d also like to get it for DRM channels so I could at least know how well I’m receiving the signal, if that’s possible.
2. If I select a DRM channel, can it offer to send me to the equivalent ATSC 1.0 channel, if there is one until DRM is supported?

[raypenj]

So, by now, perhaps everyone has seen the A3SA announcement from Feb 26th. https://a3sa.com/annoucements/

I think owners of the Flex" 4K (myself included) could be forgiven for getting excited by much of the language in the release.

"A new digital video recorder (DVR) specification is now available to licensees of the A3SA content protection technology that is now being deployed throughout the country concurrent with the launch of NEXTGEN TV broadcast channels. "
“For the past year, we’ve been working in consultation with several electronics companies who are developing devices designed to add new features for NEXTGEN TV viewers, from simple DVRs to more advanced home networking systems. After considering the various home scenarios, A3SA is pleased to release detailed specifications that will guide companies and soon provide consumers with a wealth of new options for digital video recording and more,” said Ron Wheeler, managing director of A3SA.
"A3SA approved the new specifications and rules for secure DVRs, home gateways, and other accessory devices, as well as a newly added alternative method to let viewers securely stream ATSC 3.0 content from such devices throughout their home network. "

I don't believe there was an official response from SD to this announcement yet, except perhaps NedS saying it's nothing new. "I said Nick would provide details, but the short answer was that A3SA did not release anything new. They took a draft spec and published it, and it is still missing all the steps for *how* things are supposed to work."

Ultimately, the A3SA announcement makes it look like things are ready to go, e.g. "detailed specification". But there are indeed two definitions of "specification"

1. an act of describing or identifying something precisely or of stating a precise requirement.
2. a detailed description of the design and materials used to make something

I think most of us owners were hoping it was definition #2, but perhaps A3SA is falling back on definition #1, i.e. here are the rules you need to meet, good luck in getting there.

Is this a correct assessment of the situation?

If so, it seems perhaps the most promising direction is Google Widevine on Android boxes right now(?) Nick mentioned there was "activity" on this front.

Lastly, is SiliconDust currently a licensee of the A3SA content protection technology that was mentioned in the press release?

[Cabal]

I don't believe there was an official response from SD to this announcement yet, except perhaps NedS saying it's nothing new.

I take this as an official, and very thorough, response:

viewtopic.php?p=398657#p398657

[jasonl]

A longer response is coming from Nick. He's been busy with prep for NAB among other things.

[jeffdafoe]

I believe instead of pestering Nick or Ned about “updates” the better question is when is SD going to start playing hardball and get the lawyers involved in this situation?

Taking that route would just be a gigantic money sink.

-Jeff

[howardc1243]

Not looking to move to Za$$erbox, just hoping something from SD will provide some sort of update on their progress

If there is an update we are able to share with you, then we will share it with you. At no point would we just suddenly forget to tell everyone about some great progress on the most pressing issue on our flagship product. You can stop asking now, because at this point you're just spamming up the thread. And no one cares about some other non-gateway product's support for DRM. That means nothing for us. It does not apply here. It is not relevant here. It's a completely different product category. Understand?

NedS,
I'm not asking you or anyone else at SD to comment about another vendors product, I'm asking about your Flex 4K product. It has been over a month since the A3SA announced their specs and guidelines regarding 'networked/gateway' devices and when I and others asked for feedback from SD (Nick). I believe it was you who posted that Nick will comment once he has time to read the released specs.

Well we've heard nothing from SD (Nick) so customers like me are wondering if the existing Flex 4K tuners most of us have will be able to be updated with only firmware and software, or will it require some hardware following the release of the A3SA's specs and guidelines. Does SD have any kind of estimate when a fix will be ready, even if it goes out as beta to shake out the bugs. There is talk out on the internet that Tab*o is back working on their ATSC 3.0 'networked/gateway' again so who is going to deliver first? We heard more from SD about the obstacle's the S3SA was putting before device makers before the A3SA released their specs and guidelines, than after.

Here's a simple question, if you were a consumer, how would you feel if you purchased a Flex 4K because the SD site advertises it is an ATSC 3.0 tuner, but when you get it, you find out you can't watch a majority of the ATSC 3.0 channels because of DRM, and when you go to SD's forum only to hear DRM support is 'coming'?

freway01,

it comes down to firm guidence, and a3sa has done a sloppy job when it comes to firm guidence so Nickk and NedS cannot give any possible updates when any updates would have to be built around any rules and guidelines that are pushed-out by a3sa.

[howardc1243]

My closest TV market is Oklahoma City. In the days of analog, we could receive a perfect signal at my location 70 miles away with a decent antenna. And for a while, digital was perfectly receivable as well. I realize this is a significant distance from the transmitters but with Oklahoma's relatively flat terrain, TV signals can travel long distances in most instances.

Then something changed, ATSC 1.0 is not receivable much at all now. I don't know what changed but something did, so I have to assume that transmit power was reduced for some reason. It could be all the tower shuffling and moving transmitters to shorter towers was what caused the loss of signal. When the ATSC 3.0 signals were turned on, the Oklahoma City market was one of the first in the country to get it, reception came back, all the 3.0 signals are fine and very stable with no drop-outs at all. All of them were in the clear, unencrypted. Now only the Fox station is in the clear, all the others are using encryption and there is currently no way to watch them.

I don't know what tower is being used for the ATSC 3.0 signals, maybe it is the tallest one. The CBS station uses a 1576' tower and is not participating in the ATSC 3.0 transmissions, but their ATSC 1.0 signal is completely gone, it has not been receivable here for over a year.

Because your timeline of events goes all the way back to analog and you didn't note any changes on your system, I'm willing to bet a doughnut that you need a LTE filter.

That could be. Prior to last fall I was using an old flat-panel UHF antenna I had lying around for years, with a generic pre-amp/power supply. That setup received the ATSC 1.0 signals just fine up to a certain point. I got a new Antennas Direct DB8e last fall along with a Blonder Tongue Low-Noise UHF commercial pre-amp and power supply. I used to run the local cable TV system, so I still have access to commercial electronics, and I have lots of experience in antennas and associated electronics. I placed the new antenna on a new 30' pole quite a bit taller than the old 20' one, but none of that did any good, nothing changed. The ATSC signals are still not receivable but the ATSC 3.0 signals are rock-solid. Before the NBC and ABC signals were encrypted, they came in rock-solid as well. After encryption was turned on I can still receive the Fox station and it is rock-solid as well. I know I am a long way from the transmitter towers, but the fact that the ATSC 3.0 signals are receivable with no problem while the ATSC 1.0 signals are completely gone would indicate that something else is going on, I just can't put my finger on it.

shawn_75,

bear in mind that the building of 5G towers is still going on and there may be some of them in your area and you may have to have an LTE filter to cut through the 5G interference.

[howardc1243]

Recording DRM isn't the problem. The thing that A3SA is making difficult is streaming via a network to popular player devices.

Nickk,

you hit the nail right on the head.

[howardc1243]

I don't see the proposed plans as anything different than what is posted on the first page of this thread. No one has yet offered any proof that what they're suggesting is currently possible or allowed. What you guys are reading is marketing material in the form of a "future" changelog.

So they just need to deliver content from one of their secure one-per-TV devices to any other of their secure one-per-TV devices that is already on the network, at another TV location. It's really just a design mechanism to facilitate network sharing of still encrypted DVR recordings between their secure devices, each one of which could have individually made the identical DVR recording in the first place and played it back with the decryption occurring on that device. I don't think they will face the same obstinance from A3SA for this type of topology design.

The boxes in question are vanilla Android (TV?) operating systems, I haven't seen anything to suggest there is anything special, secure, or "blessed" about them. Hell, people in other threads are posting about getting the HDHomeRun and YouTube apps running on them.

I have nothing against the Z-company and am happy they're making progress in this space. But let's not confuse their marketing material with some sort of breakthrough that is in direct opposition to the past 12 months of experience from all parties involved.

You may want to watch the Anntenna Man's latest video. In addition to being able watch ATSC 3.0 DRM, I think he is able to record it thanks to a recent update. Not looking to move to Za$$erbox, just hoping something from SD will provide some sort of update on their progress

until those slugs at a3sa come to terms that the silicondust HDhomerun products, the flex and scribe are about the most secure gateway devices on the market nickk and neds cannot do much more than what they can.

[howardc1243]

Got it. Thank you. Is there a particular reason why it couldn't do the same for live TV also?

1) Recording works by TV show/episode so it only matters that it is the same episode, not that the channel is 100% the same.
2) Thinking it would be confusing if you select channel 102.1 and it tunes or jumps to 2.1.

Yes, please don't change this. Fallback works well for recording because I'm not usually there to correct it. But if I'm holding the remote, I want it to show me the channel I click on, even if it can't be viewed - whether that's due to DRM or a bad signal.

in the popup that shows when you select the show to record either choose record this airing or record more, in the record more you have the option of choosing a specific channel or having the unit record all channels.

it is when the all channels option which is selected by default is allowed to record, it will record on a channel where a channel that is DRM'ed.

[RMNB]

I have a PLEX server and enjoy the fact that I get 4 more tuners from my HDHR along with my other 2 tuners for watching/recording simultaneous shows. The PLEX sever has better recording functionality (better guide, deleting commercials, etc.) than the HDHR recording capabilities, so I use my PLEX for recording. I can also use my PLEX to view my shows outside of my house.

I say all of this to reinforce the fact that I can patiently await for the day that the HDHR can handle DRM. ATSC 3.0 is such a mess and devoid of anything that makes it currently better than ATSC 1.0 that it doesn't bother me that I may have to wait a very long time for HD to allow me to view all ATSC 3.0 content.

I also use my HDHR 4K to record and watch through Plex at home and away. But as I posted a few pages back, if/when the HDHR can handle DRM you still won't be able to use it for ATSC 3.0 content through your Plex setup. And since you can already watch ATSC 3.0 through your TV, nothing much is going to change.