ATSC3 Channels Crash the HDHR App - JanDSiegrist

[JanDSiegrist]

To Nick
This is the event after an HDHR app crash:

Faulting application name: HDHomeRunView.exe, version: 1.0.0.0, time stamp: 0x639a173d
Faulting module name: HEVCDECODER_STORE.dll, version: 10.0.25269.1001, time stamp: 0x81ca29bc
Exception code: 0xc0000005
Fault offset: 0x0000000000022061
Faulting process id: 0x330c
Faulting application start time: 0x01d9392fd9859d34
Faulting application path: C:\Program Files\WindowsApps\EF712BA7.HDHomeRunDVR_1.1.399.0_x64__23nna27hyxhag\HDHomeRunView.exe
Faulting module path: C:\Program Files\WindowsApps\Microsoft.HEVCVideoExtensions_2.0.60092.0_x64__8wekyb3d8bbwe\x64\HEVCDECODER_STORE.dll
Report Id: 66127d23-4837-4bf7-9989-0a5686266828
Faulting package full name: EF712BA7.HDHomeRunDVR_1.1.399.0_x64__23nna27hyxhag
Faulting package-relative application ID: App

It seems to me this is something which could be tested for and trapped. It still seems quite odd that two other apps can tune and display ATSC3 channels yet the HDHR app cannot.
Other:
Just for the heck of it I installed the latest HDHR app on a Chromebook, when attempting to tune an ATSC3 channel it displays a message: This video cannot be displayed. So it appears it's possible to test for and trap this type of error.

Another thing that is tough to explain why is it that a virtual Win11 machine running on the same box with the GeForce 210 runs the HDHR App ok tuning ATSC3 channels?

If I was to purchase a newer video card to get by this error what qualifications do I need to look for?
You should perhaps mention this in the docs for the HDHR app and/or the docs for the HDHomeRun Flex 4K tuner device. As a long time user of HDHomeRun products it's frustrating to run into things like this and then find out that 'somehow' other applications have found a way around it.

Jan

[nickk]

Faulting module name: HEVCDECODER_STORE.dll, version: 10.0.25269.1001, time stamp: 0x81ca29bc
Faulting module path: C:\Program Files\WindowsApps\Microsoft.HEVCVideoExtensions_2.0.60092.0_x64__8wekyb3d8bbwe\x64\HEVCDECODER_STORE.dll

The crash is in the Microsoft HEVC decoder. Most likely related to the video card driver.

It seems to me this is something which could be tested for and trapped.

The app is not in the call stack of this crash.

It still seems quite odd that two other apps can tune and display ATSC3 channels yet the HDHR app cannot.

The other two apps you mentioned use an open source implementation of a HEVC decoder, not the Microsoft HEVC Video Extensions. That approach does not meet licensing requirements.

Just for the heck of it I installed the latest HDHR app on a Chromebook, when attempting to tune an ATSC3 channel it displays a message: This video cannot be displayed. So it appears it's possible to test for and trap this type of error.

The error indicates the the model of Chromebook doesn't support 10-bit HEVC.

Another thing that is tough to explain why is it that a virtual Win11 machine running on the same box with the GeForce 210 runs the HDHR App ok tuning ATSC3 channels?

The Microsoft HEVC Video Extensions component uses whatever GPU features it can.
When running in a VM there are either no 3D GPU features available or a limited/abstracted set of 3G GPU features depending on the configuration of the VM.

If I was to purchase a newer video card to get by this error what qualifications do I need to look for?
You should perhaps mention this in the docs for the HDHR app and/or the docs for the HDHomeRun Flex 4K tuner device.

This is the first time we have had a complaint of this type of crash that was not fixed by installing the latest video drivers.
I just ordered a GeForce 210 from eBay to test here.

Nick

[signcarver]

On a geforce 210 you might as well use pure software decoding as it is just that old but be prepared to need a powerful cpu (and this is what most likely is happening in a vm). The 210 is considered nvidia's 4th gen that finally brought h.264 firmly into its products while h.265 (hevc) didn't really make its way in until what they consider 7th gen units and I believe that was just 8 bit not 10 bit. You would really want a 8th gen nvidia or later for hevc (10xx series).

You also mentioned windows 11, which had dropped support for the 210... some of the things used to allow it to be used can trip up the extensions by making it think it is more capable.

[JanDSiegrist]

Greetings everyone
Thanks so much for the information, I'll certainly look into getting a newer video card. I'll make sure I purchase from Amazon so I can easily return it if it doesn't work.

I got a feeling you folks are going to get a TON of issues when folks begin trying to tune ATSC3 channels as they are rolled out across the US. My machine with the GeForce card is an older machine but it's a 6 Core AMD chip with 16 g of ram. I run a LOT of different apps on this box and have not run into anything like this.

From what I see a lot of folks using the HDHomeRun app/DVR - are doing so on older hardware attached to their TV as a Media Center box. With cord cutting becoming more popular these days I'd expect even more of it.
Many older machines will run the HDHomeRun App/DVR just fine - that is until they attempt to tune an ATSC3 channel. A second case: I've an old Dell 755 desktop box with Win10 installed - it too runs the HDHomeRun App just fine until you tune an ATSC3 channel - on that box it does display the picture and sound for about 12 seconds and then freezes. The HDHomeRun app is still running as I can tune a normal ATSC channel but if I attempt to tune another ATSC3 - same thing - freezes. Perhaps Silicon Dust needs to come up with a tiny utility that will verify compatibility - just a thoutht...

I stand by my charge that you folks need to document the fact some machines / hardware will not be able to tune ATSC3 channels thru the HDHomeRun app.

Thanks for your time on this.
Jan

[nickk]

Your situation is the first time we have seen a problem with ATSC 3.0 on Windows 10/11 (that wasn't easily resolved by updating video card drivers).

I ordered a GeForce 210 to test here. Once reproduced we will reach out to Nvidia and post a compatibility notice.

Nick

[JanDSiegrist]

Greetings Nickk
Just curious if you got the video card and if you were able to re-produce the freezing error I'm getting.
Thanks
Jan

[nickk]

GeForce 210 set up. Interesting observations...

1) Many HEVC channels play ok.

2) Crash reproduced playing Phoenix channel 105.1 live.

3) Crash reproduced playing a recording from Phoenix channel 105.1.

4) Microsoft app Move & TV crashes playing that same recording.

5) Recording plays fine on a system with an RTX-2070 GPU.

6) The latest Nvidia driver is from 2016 (9 years ago) suggesting it is likely out of support.

I will reach out to Nvidia.

Nick

[nickk]

1) I emailed Nvidia reporting the problem and provided a test recording that reproduces the problem.

2) I emailed Microsoft reporting the problem and provided a test recording that reproduces the problem.

3) I added logic in the HDHomeRun app to detect the GeForce 210 family of GPUs and to display an error message rather than attempting to play HEVC channels. This will be in the next release.

Nick

[JanDSiegrist]

ok, thanks Nickk
Now, what is a fairly inexpensive video card that will play the ATSC3 channels?

[nickk]

I haven't kept up with GPUs for a while but some quick research....

Nvidia: You want a GTX-16xx or RTX-20xx or newer (GTX-10xx has a hardware bug in the MPEG2 decoder). Looks like the GTX-1630 is $139 and the GTX-1650 is $169.

AMD: NewEgg currently has the Ryzen 7 4600G CPU (6C/12T at 3.7GHz with GPU) for $96.99. I have a 5600G system myself. Pair it with a $74.99 motherboard and you have modern CPU+GPU for $180 - not much more than the GTX-1650. As a bonus this will likely use less power being a 65W CPU+GPU.

Intel: NewEgg has an Intel A380 graphics card for $139.99.

Hopefully other people will comment.

[RickD_99]

I haven't kept up with GPUs for a while but some quick research....

Nvidia: You want a GTX-16xx or RTX-20xx or newer (GTX-10xx has a hardware bug in the MPEG2 decoder). Looks like the GTX-1630 is $139 and the GTX-1650 is $169.

I’m running the HDHomeRun app on a Windows 11 Ryzen 2700X machine and NVidia GTX-1060 graphics card with no issues at all….

[signcarver]

The nvidia bug only affects a few tv stations... the bug is also present on an nvidia shield when using hardware decoding. As a result, most will never notice such issues on a 1000 series but if buying new to replace one issue it is probably safer to recommend one without the other issue.

[nickk]

There may be a fix for playing 10-bit HEVC on the GeForce 210 by down-converting to 8-bit after decoding. I will let you know if it happens.

Nick