ATSC 3.0: Seattle / Tacoma - 2020

ATSC 3.0 Forum
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CBme
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Re: ATSC 3.0: Seattle / Tacoma - Dec 15th launch

Post by CBme »

nickk wrote: Mon Dec 28, 2020 9:59 pm Good news and bad news...

The good news is we now have the HDHomeRun guaranteeing the order of the audio tracks matches the order from the s_tsid xml.

The bad news is that puts the Spanish stereo audio first as that track is first in the s_tsid xml.

Nick
Thanks for the update. I assume that is channel 31 (not ch24) sample stations that are doing that? Is this something they are doing incorrectly as part of the standard or just something that SD needs to adjust in the next update to select the non-sap audio? I have a dialog open with one of the managers there and can pass on any technical corrections needed or possibly find the right person if you or one of your team want to connect directly. Let me know what to pass on or PM if appropriate.

Also, I'm still getting crashes on the Shield when switching from SAP on the CH31 stations. The build date is 12-26. Is the fix mentioned something that we should see now or is it a new build we will see?

larrywhite
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Re: ATSC 3.0: Seattle / Tacoma - Dec 15th launch

Post by larrywhite »

Both 24 & 31 have the same SAP problem.
Doesn't the "S" in SAP stand for "Second" Audio Program?
It seems when SAP is available it gets toggled on, overriding the default audio program, english.

CBme
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Re: ATSC 3.0: Seattle / Tacoma - Dec 15th launch

Post by CBme »

larrywhite wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2020 6:26 am Both 24 & 31 have the same SAP problem.
Doesn't the "S" in SAP stand for "Second" Audio Program?
It seems when SAP is available it gets toggled on, overriding the default audio program, english.
Yes, it is Second Audio Program though that doesn't necessarily mean that it must physically be second in the order in the "s_tsid xml". I'm unaware of the technical bits of the standard, or how this is different than how 1.0 audio is handled in the broadcast stream. I've not found feedback from anyone with a atsc 3.0 TV to find out if those are having the same problem with the selection of the stream or if there is a different way to select the primary audio than the order of streams that xml file.

I'm assuming Nickk is fully aware of the specifics and can say if it is our stations doing something technically wrong or technically ok, just problematic for HDHR.

As for 24, it wasn't defaulting that way for me when I was able to view them. My understanding about his comment about selecting the first audio stream in the xml is that it applies to the player software and/or tuner firmware update coming this week, not the current version, so what you are experiencing with Ch24 may not be due to the XML order issue. But again, I assume Nickk can say whether the xml order problem is both Ch31 and Ch24 or just 31.

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nickk
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Re: ATSC 3.0: Seattle / Tacoma - Dec 15th launch

Post by nickk »

There are two different XML files involved...

The first is the S_TSID XML file - it contains the list of tracks, how to find them in the ATSC 3.0 data, and how to name DASH segment files. It identifies the video track, audio tracks, subtitle track, etc. This is what the HDHomeRun uses. There is no audio track order/priority information in this file, just a list of tracks. The HDHomeRun maintains the same track order.

The second is the DASH manifest XML file - this is normally used by the client to play DASH content. This doesn't contain the information needed to get from ATSC 3.0 to DASH, but does contain more detailed information useful to the client such as the language of each audio track and potentially the priority order of the audio tracks.

Nick

CBme
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Re: ATSC 3.0: Seattle / Tacoma - Dec 15th launch

Post by CBme »

nickk wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2020 5:29 pm There are two different XML files involved...

The first is the S_TSID XML file - it contains the list of tracks, how to find them in the ATSC 3.0 data, and how to name DASH segment files. It identifies the video track, audio tracks, subtitle track, etc. This is what the HDHomeRun uses. There is no audio track order/priority information in this file, just a list of tracks. The HDHomeRun maintains the same track order.

The second is the DASH manifest XML file - this is normally used by the client to play DASH content. This doesn't contain the information needed to get from ATSC 3.0 to DASH, but does contain more detailed information useful to the client such as the language of each audio track and potentially the priority order of the audio tracks.

Nick
So is there something to either of these files that our ch31 and/or ch24 stations are doing wrong (the order or lack of key information in the DASH XML) that I should ask them to correct?

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nickk
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Re: ATSC 3.0: Seattle / Tacoma - Dec 15th launch

Post by nickk »

CBme wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2020 9:10 pm So is there something to either of these files that our ch31 and/or ch24 stations are doing wrong (the order or lack of key information in the DASH XML) that I should ask them to correct?
The ideal would be for the station to send the S_TSID XML such that the audio tracks are in order - ie the primary audio track is before the secondary audio track.

Right now the 2ch Spanish track is listed in the XML before the 5.1ch English track and the HDHomeRun maintains this order.

Nick

CBme
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Re: ATSC 3.0: Seattle / Tacoma - Dec 15th launch

Post by CBme »

nickk wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2020 10:11 pm
CBme wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2020 9:10 pm So is there something to either of these files that our ch31 and/or ch24 stations are doing wrong (the order or lack of key information in the DASH XML) that I should ask them to correct?
The ideal would be for the station to send the S_TSID XML such that the audio tracks are in order - ie the primary audio track is before the secondary audio track.

Right now the 2ch Spanish track is listed in the XML before the 5.1ch English track and the HDHomeRun maintains this order.

Nick
Ok, thanks. I assume that is the case for the ch31, is it also for ch24 as larry experienced?

larrywhite
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Re: ATSC 3.0: Seattle / Tacoma - Dec 15th launch

Post by larrywhite »

Here is my WAG on what happened. Both Channels 24 & 31 used the same contractor to install their ATSC 3.0 equipment.
The contractor decided to setup KUNS which is a Univision station first whos primary audio is Spanish.
They then forgot to set the XML back to English 5.1 for the other channels causing the problem.

larrywhite
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Re: ATSC 3.0: Seattle / Tacoma - Dec 15th launch

Post by larrywhite »

I just installed the 20201229 version of Windows 10 Homerun app and channel 4.1 is back online.
Previously for the last couple days, 4.1 gave a "no data" error message and black screen when you went to it.
my.hdhomerun.com still shows 4.1 & 7.1 as HD rather than HEVC.

CBme
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Re: ATSC 3.0: Seattle / Tacoma - Dec 15th launch

Post by CBme »

larrywhite wrote: Wed Dec 30, 2020 10:46 am Here is my WAG on what happened. Both Channels 24 & 31 used the same contractor to install their ATSC 3.0 equipment.
The contractor decided to setup KUNS which is a Univision station first whos primary audio is Spanish.
They then forgot to set the XML back to English 5.1 for the other channels causing the problem.
Certainly possible though my current understanding is that 31 and 24 are collaborating but mostly doing their own thing technically (like why 24 is doing 1080i while 31 stations are doing 1080p).
Though Nick hasn't confirmed that both are a problem, I've gone ahead and sent a note to both and already received reply back from KIRO that he is forwarding it to the person who handles this aspect for their lighthouse (he noted that in many ways, given this is all brand new, they are learning along with us). So now I really hope that 24 is indeed doing the same 31 audio-order-wise and I didn't give him bad info/request. :-S
larrywhite wrote: Wed Dec 30, 2020 11:33 am I just installed the 20201229 version of Windows 10 Homerun app and channel 4.1 is back online.
Previously for the last couple days, 4.1 gave a "no data" error message and black screen when you went to it.
my.hdhomerun.com still shows 4.1 & 7.1 as HD rather than HEVC.
If you use the HDHR Setup app to see (or do) the channel scan, instead of the devices web ui, you will see the physical channels being tuned. It shows that CH24 is still missing from the scan which is why you only see the atsc 1.0 versions of 4 & 7. The firmware update addressing the PLP configuration problem is what we are waiting on to hopefully be able to pick up ch24 again.

madsushi
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Re: ATSC 3.0: Seattle / Tacoma - Dec 15th launch

Post by madsushi »

Howdy all, just set up my CONNECT 4K here in 98031, and just for posterity, here's the stations I'm getting with HEVC as of now:
  • 5.1 - KING
  • 13.1 - KCPQ
  • 16.1 - KONG
  • 22.1 - KZJO

CBme
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Re: ATSC 3.0: Seattle / Tacoma - Dec 15th launch

Post by CBme »

madsushi wrote: Thu Dec 31, 2020 2:12 pm Howdy all, just set up my CONNECT 4K here in 98031, and just for posterity, here's the stations I'm getting with HEVC as of now:
  • 5.1 - KING
  • 13.1 - KCPQ
  • 16.1 - KONG
  • 22.1 - KZJO
Congrats on the new toy! That is all the 3.0 channels it can pick up until the firmware fix lets the scan pick up Ch24 stations (KOMO, KIRO) again.

If you want to see the CH24 stations now, and see what your signal strength is, you can do that now by running the hdhomerun_config_gui.exe program in the program files/silicondust/hdhomerun folder. Once it is running, Select tuner 0 or 1 on the left, type in 24 for the "us-bcast" channel and you should see the Program drop down with the 3 programs under that channel and you should see the signal strength info. If you want to view them, make sure you have VLC installed, click the 3 PLP boxes at the bottom of the window, select KOM or KIRO then select View. KUNS is listed too but doesn't seem to be broadcasting anything yet.

madsushi
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Re: ATSC 3.0: Seattle / Tacoma - Dec 15th launch

Post by madsushi »

CBme wrote: Thu Dec 31, 2020 2:47 pm If you want to see the CH24 stations now, and see what your signal strength is, you can do that now by running the hdhomerun_config_gui.exe program in the program files/silicondust/hdhomerun folder. Once it is running, Select tuner 0 or 1 on the left, type in 24 for the "us-bcast" channel and you should see the Program drop down with the 3 programs under that channel and you should see the signal strength info. If you want to view them, make sure you have VLC installed, click the 3 PLP boxes at the bottom of the window, select KOM or KIRO then select View. KUNS is listed too but doesn't seem to be broadcasting anything yet.
Thanks for the info, I was able to follow your instructions, looks like signal strength should be fine:

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stalecheetos
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Re: ATSC 3.0: Seattle / Tacoma - Dec 15th launch

Post by stalecheetos »

Is anyone having signal quality issues with the ATSC3 channels on 31?

I received my connect 4k today and was really hoping this would allow me to finally receive Q13 without the signal breaking up, but no luck. Symbol quality drops to 0 anytime someone drives by. I'm surprised by that because KONG was solid previously.

larrywhite
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Re: ATSC 3.0: Seattle / Tacoma - Dec 15th launch

Post by larrywhite »

I'm over in Bremerton on top of a hill and all my numbers are at 100% for 31.
Pretty much a straight shot to Seattle.

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