Having a hard time convincing family (wife) that HDHR DVR can replace WMC

Help and support for HDHomeRun DVR and HDHomeRun software for Windows 10, Mac, Android, XBox, etc.
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gab
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Re: Having a hard time convincing family (wife) that HDHR DVR can replace WMC

Post by gab »

Another annoyance is the way Slice View works with a remote: if we press the up or down button while watching TV, the Slice View comes out with a picture illustrating the content of the current program, but without its description. If we then press right to get a description of the program, we get the description of the NEXT program (but with still the picture illustrating the content of the current program). We need to then press right again to get the picture that corresponds to the next show. And then left to get the description of the current show next to the picture seen when pressing right the first time. Why don't we get the description of the current show when pressing right the first time?

tachtevrenidis
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Re: Having a hard time convincing family (wife) that HDHR DVR can replace WMC

Post by tachtevrenidis »

On your question around xbox one vs nvidia shield, I have both, the app works the same amongst the two BUT I think the shield has an edge on overall TV experience (you can customize the home screen, it does not pollute the UI with games etc). The remote on the Shield is terrible on the other hand, I hope you can get the Harmony to work with the Shield.

gab
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Re: Having a hard time convincing family (wife) that HDHR DVR can replace WMC

Post by gab »

@tachtevrenidis Thanks for your feedback on Xbox One vs Shield. If the app works the same on both I will stay on Xbox One, which seems to me to offer a better value than the Shield. But have you tried the Android TV Live Channels app on the Shield?

Bobstr
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Re: Having a hard time convincing family (wife) that HDHR DVR can replace WMC

Post by Bobstr »

gab wrote: Mon Dec 30, 2019 11:54 am @Bobstr

Thank you for your encouragement! Our Logitech Harmony is also a 650 (great remote!), and I will look into remapping further buttons as you did... but I think that it would make more sense for the HDHR DVR app developers to properly handle WMC/MCE commands in the first place so that users of non-programmable remotes such as the Talon remote often mentioned in this forum can also benefit.
While I won't disagree with you on the use of MCE functions in the HDHR software, particularly since the HDHR software *does* respond to them (although not necessarily appropriately), I don't think it wouldn't take much to correct the issue - it's not high on the priority list for fixes/updates/feature adds. Or at least it seems that way, so I've given up waiting and have been remapping from WMC function to the keyboard commands as I find additional ones that aren't properly functioning. It's a pain, but getting that done has increased the family's approval level, so...

gab
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Re: Having a hard time convincing family (wife) that HDHR DVR can replace WMC

Post by gab »

@Bobstr Thank you for sharing your experience and point of view. I guess as a newcomer to the app I am still hopeful that the app will improve quickly and I am surprised that proper WMC/MCE remote control support is unlikely to be towards the top of the priority list. To me it looks like the app was designed with touchscreens or keyboards/mice in mind. Do people watch TV on phones or tablets nowadays? Personally, I have absolutely no intent whatsoever to watch TV on a portable device.

nickk
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Re: Having a hard time convincing family (wife) that HDHR DVR can replace WMC

Post by nickk »

Correcting button mapping is a priority - expect to see an update in the next week or so.

The best thing you can do now is to post specific button mapping issues you are seeing. There are a number of different remotes and it would be good to verify we can reproduce the same problem with the remotes we have here.

Nick

gab
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Re: Having a hard time convincing family (wife) that HDHR DVR can replace WMC

Post by gab »

@nickk I am very happy to read that you are committing to correct button mapping within a couple of weeks! I will play more with a couple of old WMC/MCE remotes I have (one Dell, one HP) on Windows 10 and report here although my primary use-case is the Xbox One (where we use a Logitech Harmony 650 rather than a real WMC/MCE remote).

gab
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Re: Having a hard time convincing family (wife) that HDHR DVR can replace WMC

Post by gab »

@nickk Please find hereunder my observations on Windows 10 using a Dell RC1974009 remote from 2007 that came with a Dell Media Center PC and a HP TSGH-IR03 I purchased used. The good news is that they behave exactly the same (but a bit differently from what I observed on the Xbox One with the Harmony, so I need to create two tables)

*** Windows 10 using Windows Media Center Remote ***

Button, Expectation, Current behavior, Severity, Comment

Record, should record the current television program, does nothing, medium, by the way the circle around the record button showing a program is being recorded is hard to see from far away compared to the big red dot that WMC shows for programs that are being recorded
Info, should display available info (e.g. channel, program, etc), does nothing, high, using the Green (A) button is not intuitive
Clear, should delete the last character entered, SEEMS TO BE DOING THE SAME AS BACK OR REB (B), high, WHILE THIS IS BETTER THAN NOTHING, THIS IS NOT THE CORRECT BEHAVIOR

Live TV, should display the full screen view of live TV and move TV program forward to the end of the pause buffer and resume playing live TV, does nothing, low, nice to have feature
Recorded TV, should open the recorded TV window where recorded TV programs are listed, does nothing, low, nice to have feature
Guide, should open the television program, does nothing, low, I think in the context of your app that it would make sense to open the "Discover" window which kind of plays the role of the guide in WMC
DVD menu, should open the play DVD window, does nothing, very low, In the context of your app might as well open the "Tasks" window. Like that we would get a shortcut for the four main windows of your app?

Channel Up, should change TV channel up, BRINGS MINI CONTROL BAR IN TOP LEFT CORNER OF SCREEN, high, THIS IS NOT THE CORRECT BEHAVIOR
Channel Down, should change TV channel down, does nothing, high, being able to easily change channels is important...

On/Off, should put the computer into and out of sleep (handled by Windows I assume), works but when coming back from sleep after putting computer to sleep while watching Live TV message "Unable to play channel: Play restart required" is displayed on top of Live TV even though everything seems to work fine, very low, just make the message go away if it is not warranted
Start "Green button", should open HDHomerun :-), does nothing, very low, obviously not you problem but it would be neat if somebody could figure out how to link your app to that button.

The other buttons seem to do what they are supposed to do, although you might want to offer a setting so that the "*" key is converted to "." for users of antennas that need a dot (The HP remote has a dot under the "*" on the button, but pressing the button always outputs a "*" like the Dell remote does in your app. I am not sure in which context it would output a dot in WMC).
Also the HP remote actually has a couple of buttons that the Dell does not have (e.g. Print, Eject, etc). They obviously can be ignored by your app.

gab
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Re: Having a hard time convincing family (wife) that HDHR DVR can replace WMC

Post by gab »

@nickk Please find hereunder my latest observations on Xbox One with a Logitech Harmony 650 using the default layout provided by Logitech with three exceptions:
1. Back button mapped to Back command (by default button is not mapped)
2. E/Enter button mapped to OK command (by default button is not mapped)
3. ./+/Clear button mapped to Clear command (by default button is mapped to "." if I remember correctly)
Since what matters is the command rather than the button, I added a new column in the table with the name of the command (using naming convention from Logitech)

*** Xbox One using Logitech Harmony 650 ***

Button, Command, Expectation, Current behavior, Severity, Comment

Record, Record, should record the current television program, does nothing, medium, by the way the circle around the record button showing a program is being recorded is hard to see from far away compared to the big red dot that WMC shows for programs that are being recorded
Info, Info, should display available info (e.g. channel, program, etc), does nothing, high, using the Green (A) button is not intuitive
./+/Clear, Clear, should delete the last character entered, does nothing, high, note that this is a different behavior from what is observed on Windows 10 using a real WMC/MCE remote

Subtitle soft button, Subtitle, should toggle closed captioning on and off, does nothing, low, nice to have feature
LiveTV soft button, LiveTV, should display the full screen view of live TV and move TV program forward to the end of the pause buffer and resume playing live TV, does nothing, low, nice to have feature
DVR soft button, DVR, should open the recorded TV window where recorded TV programs are listed, does nothing, low, nice to have feature
TVListings soft button, TVListings, should open the television program, does nothing, low, I think in the context of your app that it would make sense to open the "Discover" window which kind of plays the role of the guide in WMC. As bonus might want to handle "Movies" and "TVShows" commands to directly go to sub-windows within Discover window?

Channel Up, ChannelUp, should change TV channel up, seems to be skipping ten channels at the time, high, note that this is different behavior than on Windows 10 using a real WMC/MCE remote
Channel Down, ChannelDown, should change TV channel down, seems to be skipping ten channels at the time, high, being able to easily change channels is important...

The other buttons seem to do what they are supposed to do. Also, I am OK to use the PDP Talon remote that other posters have mentioned as the reference remote control for Xbox One if that makes your life easier as the official Xbox One media remote has very little buttons but it is weird that they apparently have two possible different layouts according to the pictures on the Amazon entry (buttons DVR and LiveTV buttons on one picture are replaced by Movies and TVShows on another picture). If the Logitech does not behave like the PDP Talon, then I assume I could raise an issue with Logitech...

Thanks!

tachtevrenidis
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Re: Having a hard time convincing family (wife) that HDHR DVR can replace WMC

Post by tachtevrenidis »

gab wrote: Thu Jan 02, 2020 7:43 am @tachtevrenidis Thanks for your feedback on Xbox One vs Shield. If the app works the same on both I will stay on Xbox One, which seems to me to offer a better value than the Shield. But have you tried the Android TV Live Channels app on the Shield?
indeed I have. When you first start it, it seems too good to be true and later you find out it is. For me personally, at a certain point, it always loses track of the tuners and can't tune in anymore (I don't have that issue with the HDHR app). I should also mention that every movie recorded by HDHR, I end up post processing (in the background, automated pipeline via MCEBuddy) and sent to Plex. I only watch recorded TV on HDHR. All movie watching is on Plex (commercials cut etc). I say that because I can't use Channels as it records ON the Shield (I do all HDHR on a Win7 machine, yep Win7!) On the other hand, I used MCE for 10 years or so (started with Hauppauge)

ppilot
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Re: Having a hard time convincing family (wife) that HDHR DVR can replace WMC

Post by ppilot »

Bobstr wrote: Mon Dec 30, 2019 11:19 am Gab - A year or tow ago, we did the transition similar to what you're going through.

Yes, there are many differences between how WMC and HDHR DVR work. It's the nature of the business that things change over time, and that change is particularly jarring when a beloved product (WMC) dies and has to be replaced with something that has a completely different schema.

My wife was a bit similar in the desire to 'keep things the same', but was able to get used to the transition. I helped the wife by reading the 'how to' docs and summarizing the commands in a single page cheat sheet for her. I also use a harmony remote (the 650 that was made for WMC use) - and changed the mapping in it to match the keys to work with HDHR. An example of that is that I changed 'guide' and 'exit' mapping to the 'esc' key (brings up the record engine 'recorded TV' screen), and the pause/play buttons to 'space bar'. I don't recall having to make any other changes. right now, if you use the WMC commands like 'stop' playing a recording or live TV, it will work, but it shows an old command popup window for a moment or two - if you see that, you'll need to remap those buttons to the correct keyboard commands ('esc' for the stop button for example) per the HDHR W10 and other docs.

HDHR is quite a tradeoff, when compared against WMC, but WMC is dead and there are benefits to HDHR that you don't have with WMC. It will just take some extra support of your wife to get her through the transition (when my wife realized it was inevitable that we had to transition, she was much easier to work with...).

Good luck.
Actually WMC isn't dead and is still the best Cablecard Live TV Experience there is as we still use it as our everyday platform along with an Xbox 360 as an extender (which means I have have until Windows 8 EOL). It's crazy to think how far ahead of it's time WMC was and how different the cord cutting scene would be if they had kept it going for a little longer.

The HDHR Platform is getting there, but little things like a lack of a last channel button are major drawbacks considering Sports are one of the few reasons to keep Cable these days.

gab
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Re: Having a hard time convincing family (wife) that HDHR DVR can replace WMC

Post by gab »

@tachtevrenidis Thanks for the feedback on Android TV Live Channels. I guess it is not ready for primetime either.

gab
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Re: Having a hard time convincing family (wife) that HDHR DVR can replace WMC

Post by gab »

@ppilot Have you switched to EPG123 to get the TV guide for WMC on Windows 8.1? If so can you describe your experience with it?

ppilot
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Re: Having a hard time convincing family (wife) that HDHR DVR can replace WMC

Post by ppilot »

gab wrote: Fri Jan 03, 2020 10:29 am @ppilot Have you switched to EPG123 to get the TV guide for WMC on Windows 8.1? If so can you describe your experience with it?
I've been on EPG123 for the last three years and have had zero issues. I donate money every year even though I don't have to just because the product support is so good.

gab
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Re: Having a hard time convincing family (wife) that HDHR DVR can replace WMC

Post by gab »

@ppilot Thanks.

So at this point it seems to me that the two best possible paths for our household are:
1. Continue to use HDHR DVR on Servio and Xbox One, or
2. Switch back to WMC on Windows 8.1 and Xbox 360 with EPG123+HDHR2MXF for guide until Windows 8.1 reaches EOL.

Hopefully the next release of the HDHR DVR UI with better remote control support will convince us to stay with option 1.

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