HEVC Stations- No difference

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mjaklrsav
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HEVC Stations- No difference

Post by mjaklrsav »

Hooked up the new 4K HD HomeRun today(3/20/2021)and scanned the channels here around Detroit and received six HEVC stations.
I assume that these are the 4K channels but watching these channels compared to its HD listed versions show no difference.
No WOW factor here.

Looking at Status on one of the HEVC channel:
Modulation Lock: atsc3
Signal Strength: 89%
Signal Quality: 100%
Symbol Quality: 100%

Streaming Rate 5.064Mbps

I am assuming the low stream rate is HD and not ATSC 3.0 4K, but is there something on my side that needs to be changed/adjusted or is it the Detroit signal?
62 total channels found. I am about 30 miles from the towers but do have an outdoor antenna mounted 18ft off the ground. The cable runs into the PST 8-Port Bi-Directional Cable TV HDTV Amplifier Splitter Signal Booster and I am using the Fire Cube 4K box. Current internet speed is 200Mbps.

Ready to ship this box back due to no improved HD quality.

kyl416
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Re: HEVC Stations- No difference

Post by kyl416 »

No one is transmitting 4K over the air right now outside of a LPTV station in Idaho that has Insight UHD as part of an encrypted subscription OTA service that has a bunch of other cable channels.

There's no seperate ATSC 3.0 allocation for each station like there was during the 2009 transition, so groups of stations have to come together and pick an existing signal to share for at least 5 years, which doesn't leave enough bandwidth for 4K. Plus the major network feeds still originate as either 1080i or 720p, so what's available is just HEVC/AC-4 versions of the primary channels at mostly the same resolution, with a few stations deinterlacing the 1080i network source to provide 1080p. The main improvement for now is that the modulation used by ATSC 3.0 is better at handling multipath issues, and in some PLP configurations can be decoded under unstable reception conditions like while you are in motion.

Detroit's ATSC 3.0 launch was done as a partnership with the automotive industry to test future backseat technology, which is why they are one of the few DMAs that has their CBS O&O participating.

xmguy
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Re: HEVC Stations- No difference

Post by xmguy »

I can chime in here. I am 67 miles away from Nashville TN. I have a Channel Master 3020, it's up 20 ft. The ATSC 1.0 channels are VERY unstable. However the ATSC 3.0 (QAM16), "Robust" signal has been the best I've ever seen. As good as it was back in the analog TV days. It's great for fringe/mobile users. It's made a night and day difference in my reception all across the bands. However as Kyl said, until EACH station has their OWN ATSC 3.0 channel, where they "can" offer a good stable/robust signal, what we have now is the best we'll have. As for 4K, personally I'm glad to just get a signal. I think the value of the ATSC 3.0 is more for the robust/fringe/mobile signal offering than 4K. 4K WILL come, but it will be atleast 5 years. For now just enjoy the great signal and multipath performance at a VERY good price. :)

CBme
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Re: HEVC Stations- No difference

Post by CBme »

mjaklrsav wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 3:06 pm Ready to ship this box back due to no improved HD quality.
Generally a good idea to do at least a base level of research before dropping $200 on a bleeding edge new tech. Then, if you chose to buy the product after said research and have a problem/question, it is usually a good idea to do a base level of research on the forum before you ask for other people's help while acting indignant.
Given all of this is too much for you, returning it and not buying anything more advanced than a banana would be the best for everyone.

geh2020
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Re: HEVC Stations- No difference

Post by geh2020 »

I joined the Kickstarter program knowing full well that ATSC 3.0 is in it's beta stage. I enjoy being the first with new technology and find it interesting watching it grow. The HDHomerun 4K is updated frequently for when problems arise. I am having a few minor problems but that is part of the early adopter game. BTW, the ATSC 1.0 tuners work quite well so I find it a useful device. The audio and video on 3.0 on stations using 1080i and 720p is an improvement over the old standard.

shfy70
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Re: HEVC Stations- No difference

Post by shfy70 »

I bought it for 4K broadcast, before the purchase, nowhere you will find out that ATSC3.0 only broadcast in 1080p, I felt that I was cheated.
Very upset to waste $220.

NedS
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Re: HEVC Stations- No difference

Post by NedS »

This is a situation where it's no different than buying a 4k-capable bluray player. The hardware is ready and willing to play back 4K content, but you need a 4K disc for that to happen. When that happens depends heavily upon local broadcasters and their specific situations.

We just sell the "player", we don't make the movies.

joblo
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Re: HEVC Stations- No difference

Post by joblo »

NedS wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:23 pmThis is a situation where it's no different than buying a 4k-capable bluray player.
Oh, whoa, whoa, whoa, STOP!

4K BDs exist: https://hd-report.com/list-of-4k-ultra- ... sc-titles/

(Took me all of 5 seconds to find that list, which I never looked for before because I don't have a 4K bluray player, and likely never will, because with my vision issues, I can't see 4K.)

But 4K U.S. broadcasts do NOT exist, and maybe never will.

Look, you could have called it "HDHR5-3.0", but you didn't, because you (SD, not you, personally, Ned) knew that wouldn't sell as well as if you called it "HDHR5-4K".

I get it, that's marketing, ok, fine, and SD is certainly not alone in this:

https://www.watchnextgentv.com/

But don't act like you're all innocent as the driven snow, and not a part of the great 3.0 hype machine.

I didn't buy the 4K-DEV for 4K, I just wanted to see the experiments, and I wanted to run the live band scan, which I encourage other 4K owners to do, so we can get more data on this rollout:

https://rabbitears.info/tvdx/all_tuners
https://www.rabbitears.info/static.php? ... e_bandscan

To reiterate, I'm very satisfied with my purchase and looking forward to actually seeing 3.0 in DC, starting tomorrow. But I can well understand why others might not be so satisfied.

Ken.F
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Re: HEVC Stations- No difference

Post by Ken.F »

joblo wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 4:11 am Oh, whoa, whoa, whoa, STOP!

4K BDs exist
I was thinking the same thing when I first read that. Maybe Ned should have said 4K television. People buy 4K TVs all the time yet there are no 4K broadcasts, and they don't even have a 4K tuner in them. I guess if they called them what they really are (4K Monitor with HD tuner) nobody would buy them.

joblo
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Re: HEVC Stations- No difference

Post by joblo »

Ken.F wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 4:42 am
joblo wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 4:11 am Oh, whoa, whoa, whoa, STOP!

4K BDs exist
I was thinking the same thing when I first read that. Maybe Ned should have said 4K television. People buy 4K TVs all the time yet there are no 4K broadcasts, and they don't even have a 4K tuner in them.
Yeah, but nobody cares, because they have 4K BDs or 4K Netflix or 4K Amazon or a 4K sports channel from their MVPD, etc. In other words, there are plenty of 4K sources available for those TVs right now, today. So those folks don't really miss 4K OTA, and if they care about it, they figure they'll get an external tuner for that later.

So enter SD. ALL the HDHR5-4K does is tune OTA. That's it. So the expectations are a little different.

I think most of us here are tech geeks who are in on the joke, so to speak. But those that aren't could understandably feel a little burned.

nickk
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Re: HEVC Stations- No difference

Post by nickk »

One of the big features of ATSC 3.0 is 4K support. During development (and product naming) we participated in ATSC 3.0 events at broadcast stations where much of the content was 4K. Now we are waiting for rollout of more channels and the first 4K broadcast content.

Nick

geh2020
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Re: HEVC Stations- No difference

Post by geh2020 »

I remember when digital tv first came out they said stations would only broadcast in 480p no HDTV. Well the public wanted HDTV so most television today is HD. so you never know about 4K. There are a lot of 4K televisions out there now.

xmguy
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Re: HEVC Stations- No difference

Post by xmguy »

I recall a story of a guy who bought a HDTV in 2001. He returned it after finding there were VERY few HD stations/content back then. I like most got this for the enjoyment of getting in on a new emerging technology of television broadcasting. I upload to the bandscans. I have bought a high end outdoor antenna. I've spent hours cutting down trees, and putting my antenna higher. For me personally fringe and mobile reception is more important than 4K. I know for alot 4K will be big. But they (ATSC committee/broadcasters) sold it with fringe use, and 4K being the driving points to get folks to convert to 3.0.

NedS
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Re: HEVC Stations- No difference

Post by NedS »

joblo wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 4:11 am
NedS wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:23 pmThis is a situation where it's no different than buying a 4k-capable bluray player.
Oh, whoa, whoa, whoa, STOP!

4K BDs exist: https://hd-report.com/list-of-4k-ultra- ... sc-titles/
Yes, I know, that's why I used that example. The data coming out can be in 4K if the content going in is in 4K. If the data going in is not in 4K, that still doesn't change the fact that it is a 4K-capable bluray player. The company selling the player did not deceive anyone.
But 4K U.S. broadcasts do NOT exist, and maybe never will.
4K broadcasts have already happened (real world tests, in the wild, from actual broadcasters). Broadcasters are already pouring a ton of money into upgrades that will eventually enable them to do 4K broadcasts, and they're not doing that as a "maybe".
Look, you could have called it "HDHR5-3.0", but you didn't, because you (SD, not you, personally, Ned) knew that wouldn't sell as well as if you called it "HDHR5-4K".
Ironically, it was literally my idea to call the model number the "-4K". I'm not even joking. We called it the 4K for the same reason that people mention 4K in a TV or that Amazon calls one of their Fire TVs the "Fire TV Stick 4K". It is capable of 4K content.
I get it, that's marketing, ok, fine, and SD is certainly not alone in this:

https://www.watchnextgentv.com/

But don't act like you're all innocent as the driven snow, and not a part of the great 3.0 hype machine.
Are you suggesting that we're being misleading to mention a headline feature of ATSC 3.0 in our first ATSC 3.0 product? I'm pretty sure we also mentioned (in the Kickstarter, at least) various other features, like interactive content, but again, this is a new technology, and it will take time for broadcasters to deploy these features.

There is no deception going on here. There is no false promise. ATSC 3.0 is a new technology, no matter how much we expect instant gratification.

xmguy
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Re: HEVC Stations- No difference

Post by xmguy »

This naming thing is honestly no different than antenna makers putting in HD, and 4K in their listings. Even though radio is radio, data is data. It helps things sell. Simple, to the point. SD is still a startup company and needs as much buzz toward what sells then most. From a consumer prospective I would have rather it been ATSC3.0 named. But from a business one, calling it 4K for an upcoming 4K future is very wise.

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