4K Content - Broadcasts Yet?

ATSC 3.0 Forum
kcimpulse
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4K Content - Broadcasts Yet?

Post by kcimpulse »

Just wondering who might know when some broadcasts will be done with 4K content or anything else special HDR, etc... (I know the Utah paid station has something, but ignoring that)

I know that the best (first) chances in the future are the Olympics and the SuperBowl.... I have also been reading that NBC might be some of the first to do some prime time (sometime because they are shooting in that for some of their shows)

But just curious where to start looking, and if anyone else knew of some hidden broadcasts etc.... I hope I can experience some of the first!!!!

I'm in Denver - already got the 4 channels tuned in here already, and just like the switch to HD way back in the day keeping an eye on PBS and live news for first stuff.

ppasteur
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Re: 4K Content - Broadcasts Yet?

Post by ppasteur »

This is just an opinion, keep that in mind. I have no inside info. But BTW, I am in Denver as well.
I think that we will not see 4K, HDR, nor any of the advanced features of ATSC 3 until the lighthouse phase of the roll out is over. This means a minimum of 5 years.
With the sharing of bandwidth available from a single transmitter on a single frequency likely it does not support any of those features. Just look at Denver. They are only providing about half of the bitrate on ATSC 3 channels versus ATSC 1. (AND it really shows up in PQ).
A caveat here though. HDR does not add appreciably to the required bandwidth. So that may be available sooner than other features.

Of course even notwithstanding the bandwidth problem, there is the production side of things. Infrastructure updates will be costly.
Finally and maybe most important, is whether the stations can figure out a way to monetize any changes. Ask yourself what the stations can get out of providing HQ audio and video? Income from current advertisers likely would not increase, so what is their motivation for the investment?

In other words, I am certainly not going to hold my breath, nor do I have high expectations for seeing , implementation of the kind of things you ask about in the near term. As to the programming you mention, I think you will have a better chance of seeing higher quality video and audio OTT than on OTA TV.

BTW, you may want to check this out:

https://www.avsforum.com/threads/atsc-3 ... t-60426612

This in particular:
https://www.avsforum.com/threads/atsc-3 ... t-60422746
The entire topic, but particularly, last page in the thread has some interesting discussion on this topic by people with far more knowledge on the industry than what I have. The entire topic is worth a read if you have some time.

csdesigns
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Re: 4K Content - Broadcasts Yet?

Post by csdesigns »

ppasteur wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 11:45 am This is just an opinion, keep that in mind. I have no inside info. But BTW, I am in Denver as well.
I think that we will not see 4K, HDR, nor any of the advanced features of ATSC 3 until the lighthouse phase of the roll out is over. This means a minimum of 5 years.
With the sharing of bandwidth available from a single transmitter on a single frequency likely it does not support any of those features. Just look at Denver. They are only providing about half of the bitrate on ATSC 3 channels versus ATSC 1. (AND it really shows up in PQ).
A caveat here though. HDR does not add appreciably to the required bandwidth. So that may be available sooner than other features.

Of course even notwithstanding the bandwidth problem, there is the production side of things. Infrastructure updates will be costly.
Finally and maybe most important, is whether the stations can figure out a way to monetize any changes. Ask yourself what the stations can get out of providing HQ audio and video? Income from current advertisers likely would not increase, so what is their motivation for the investment?
As someone who is actively working with broadcasters and the Pearl organization, I can speak with some 'inside info' and corroborate what you state is mostly true...
  • 4K – yeah, not anytime soon, at least not on a large scale. I wouldn't hold my breath for the Super Bowl (CBS will have some 4K and 8K cameras at the game, but the majority of their production cameras are still only HD, so even if they did somehow send out a 4K signal, it'd only be at best upscaled 1080p, since they would use a common editing format for all cameras, like Fox Sports does), but the Olympics should have at least a portion of the events in 4K.
  • HDR – unfortunately, we've already seen where most broadcasters and content providers are leaning wrt HDR and delivering content at sub-4K: If they aren't going to deliver in 4K resolution, then they aren't going to deliver in HDR at 1080p/1080i/720p (heck, Dolby Vision at even SDR looks way better than standard SDR, and NO ONE uses that format!). This is a rather unfortunate situation, as there are certainly many benefits to be had with HDR at lower resolutions, but the effort and expense for the vast majority of content owners/distributers/providers is not worth it in their minds.
  • Lighthouse or Greenfield phase – I think the industry will be shocked if in 5 years ATSC 3.0 is something that is actually 'tunable' by a decent number of households. That number really has to reach a near majority for the more advanced features (wrt PQ) of ATSC 3.0 to become ubiquitous. Until then, ATSC 3.0 is going to be refined on the PQ-side to delivering comparable PQ to ATSC 1.0, but at much lower bit rates. I think most stations realize they are not hitting that just yet, but are mostly waiting on stronger market adoption to make that a priority. In many cases, it really can't be understated the challenges involved in all of this is, so we must remember that it is still early days yet.
  • Monetization – this is something that I don't think stations are going to be challenged with long-term as much as some people might assume. The interactive elements of ATSC 3.0 (not just for the TV viewers), the ability for governments to utilize ATSC 3.0 for learning and education services (your local municipality is not going to start broadcasting their own signal; they will pay a broadcaster to do it for them), and eventually having more bandwidth for more channels (where a lot of these new sub-channels will be directly paying the broadcaster to carry the channel, thus more revenue), will make ATSC 3.0 a worthwhile venture. This likely won't be the case for every station in every market, but there will probably be 3 or 4 in most markets that find it quite lucrative. However, note that none of those options relates to delivering better PQ (particularly 4K and HDR) – that just isn't a priority right now, and likely won't be until there is greater demand and easier access across the board.

ppasteur
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Re: 4K Content - Broadcasts Yet?

Post by ppasteur »

Thank You for the enhanced answer. It follows right along with everything I have read to date on the subject from others involved in the industry.

tvdust
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Re: 4K Content - Broadcasts Yet?

Post by tvdust »

This is all so depressing. I feel a little like I did when I bought a betamax.

I was hoping OTA broadcasters would see 4K as a lifeline to become relevant again vs streaming, like The Movies had to keep packing in features to claw back audiences they were losing to TV.

How much would it cost per TV to require ATSC 3.0 tuners in new TVs, the way they did with HDTV?

Oh well, I wanted a Quatro anyway, and the 4K Quatro wasn't that much more expensive, and may be better for ATSC 1.0, but I was really hyped about free high quality 4K network shows. Plus I felt a little like I was sticking it to Big Cable in my own small way.

I've been putting off buying a higher end streaming box (Shield/Ultra/Cube) until I know they can play ATSC 3.0 (AC-4 in particular), but if we're talking 5 years(!), if at all, I guess I should just take the plunge now. Is there any reason to wait?

clarkss12
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Re: 4K Content - Broadcasts Yet?

Post by clarkss12 »

ATSC 3.0
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

South Korean deployment
On July 27, 2016, South Korea's Ministry of Science, ICT and Future Planning officially endorsed ATSC 3.0 as the country's broadcasting standard for ultra-high-definition television.[41] On January 6, 2017, LG Electronics announced that their 2017 4K TVs sold in South Korea would include ATSC 3.0 tuners.[42]

On May 31, 2017, SBS, MBC, and KBS officially launched their full-time ATSC 3.0 services in major South Korean markets such as Seoul and Incheon. The launch had been delayed from February 2017 due to issues obtaining the required equipment.[43][44]

The transition made South Korea the first country in the world to deploy a terrestrial UHD format, and enabled 4K broadcasts of the 2018 Winter Olympics in Pyeongchang County.[45][46]

Hahaha, South Korea broadcast in UHD 2 years ago, but not in the USA..........

kyl416
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Re: 4K Content - Broadcasts Yet?

Post by kyl416 »

South Korea doesn't have nearly as many stations in a given city like we have here, so they don't have to worry about squeezing in dozens of full power, Class A and LPTV stations in major and larged sized markets. (i.e. Seoul only has 6 full power stations, while NYC has 15+ full power sginals)

South Korea's ATSC 3.0 deployment was also very different from the USA. Over there they dedicated 30 MHz (5 channels) of the 700 MHz band for ATSC 3.0 broadcasts that co-exist with their current ATSC 1.0 broadcasts. With only 4 national broadcasting companies (KBS, EBS, SBS, and MBC), that's enough to give each major broadcaster a dedicated ATSC 3.0 allotment in the major cities.

Compare that to here where there are no seperate ATSC 3.0 allotments. The stations in each DMA have to pick one or two existing ATSC 1.0 signals to convert to shared ATSC 3.0 lighthouses on their current RF numbers and maintain ATSC 1.0 simulcasts of all of those subchannels for at least 5 years via the remaining signals in the market, leaving no bandwidth for 4K when you need to share 4-5 HD channels on one ATSC 3.0 signal.

CBme
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Re: 4K Content - Broadcasts Yet?

Post by CBme »

tvdust wrote: Wed Jan 20, 2021 7:52 pm I was hoping OTA broadcasters would see 4K as a lifeline to become relevant again vs streaming, like The Movies had to keep packing in features to claw back audiences they were losing to TV.

I've been putting off buying a higher end streaming box (Shield/Ultra/Cube) until I know they can play ATSC 3.0 (AC-4 in particular), but if we're talking 5 years(!), if at all, I guess I should just take the plunge now. Is there any reason to wait?
For the broadcasters I don't see them considering 4k atsc 3 broadcasts to be imperative. Your local stations likely do not look at themselves as "OTA broadcasters" as the vast majority of their views are going to be over cable and the majority of their content is not even produced locally/in-house so it is out of their control. OTA is just one way they reach their customers, and not nearly the primary way (and OTA may even be behind internet viewers). If/when they do 4k, my guess it is will be the national & regional network portion (shows and sports) and it is far more likely to be with the plan to deliver it over cable as that is where the mass of their audience is and they have a lot clearer view of customer's 4k consumption capability from the larger cable monopolies. The handful of ATSC 3.0 users may be a beneficiary of the plan, but not the primary target.

To buying devices: every new streaming box can play 4k and play H.265. The only question you have in regards to atsc 3 is ac-4 in a TS stream. Shield can do it, Roku cannot currently, not sure about amazon device though I wouldn't recommend anyone use a device from Amazon that is going to be limited.
Just read the other threads about device compatibility. Live ATSC 3 is likely to be the least of your uses so there isn't a point on focusing on it. Just eliminate the ones that don't support ac-4 today (as there is no guarantee it ever will) and then buy based on features that best meet or exceed your requirements and desires.

tvdust
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Re: 4K Content - Broadcasts Yet?

Post by tvdust »

CBme wrote: Thu Jan 21, 2021 1:17 am The only question you have in regards to atsc 3 is ac-4 in a TS stream. Shield can do it,
I wasn't sure if the Shield could do AC-4 or not. Info on this forum seems mixed, and when I try googling "nvidia shield ac-4", all I get is info about Assassin's Creed 4 and AC adapters, with a few links back to this forum.

Thanks for the feedback.

NedS
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Re: 4K Content - Broadcasts Yet?

Post by NedS »

tvdust wrote: Thu Jan 21, 2021 2:47 am
CBme wrote: Thu Jan 21, 2021 1:17 am The only question you have in regards to atsc 3 is ac-4 in a TS stream. Shield can do it,
I wasn't sure if the Shield could do AC-4 or not. Info on this forum seems mixed, and when I try googling "nvidia shield ac-4", all I get is info about Assassin's Creed 4 and AC adapters, with a few links back to this forum.

Thanks for the feedback.
There's basically three generations of Nvidia Shield. The 2015 and 2017 versions will only work with AC-4 if you are connected to a sound bar or audio receiver that has ATMOS support. The 2019 Shield will work regardless of audio device, as it has a license to decode the AC-4 codec internally.

CBme
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Re: 4K Content - Broadcasts Yet?

Post by CBme »

NedS wrote: Thu Jan 21, 2021 3:54 am
tvdust wrote: Thu Jan 21, 2021 2:47 am
CBme wrote: Thu Jan 21, 2021 1:17 am The only question you have in regards to atsc 3 is ac-4 in a TS stream. Shield can do it,
I wasn't sure if the Shield could do AC-4 or not. Info on this forum seems mixed, and when I try googling "nvidia shield ac-4", all I get is info about Assassin's Creed 4 and AC adapters, with a few links back to this forum.

Thanks for the feedback.
There's basically three generations of Nvidia Shield. The 2015 and 2017 versions will only work with AC-4 if you are connected to a sound bar or audio receiver that has ATMOS support. The 2019 Shield will work regardless of audio device, as it has a license to decode the AC-4 codec internally.
Any shield that you buy today is going to be the 2019 version so don't worry about trying to figure out the year version if you are looking to buy one online. Just note the the difference between the Shield and the Shield Pro. https://www.androidcentral.com/nvidia-s ... ould-i-buy
I should have also mentioned game consoles. If you are play console games, then the PS or Xbox may be your best choice as they can do it all.

clarkss12
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Re: 4K Content - Broadcasts Yet?

Post by clarkss12 »

Tivo Stream 4k also has sound on the ATSC 3.0 channels.

kinisonkhan
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Re: 4K Content - Broadcasts Yet?

Post by kinisonkhan »

I'm happy to get 1080p right now. Been using a HDHR Prime for years now and originally I was getting a few 1080p channels, but for the last year or so, its nothing but 720p. Last year I had to switch from local FOX to the Fox Sports App in order to watch the Superbowl in 1080p. I no longer trust Comcast to provide high quality video anymore and cant wait to return the cable card next month.

onilink67
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Re: 4K Content - Broadcasts Yet?

Post by onilink67 »

NedS wrote: Thu Jan 21, 2021 3:54 am
tvdust wrote: Thu Jan 21, 2021 2:47 am
CBme wrote: Thu Jan 21, 2021 1:17 am The only question you have in regards to atsc 3 is ac-4 in a TS stream. Shield can do it,
I wasn't sure if the Shield could do AC-4 or not. Info on this forum seems mixed, and when I try googling "nvidia shield ac-4", all I get is info about Assassin's Creed 4 and AC adapters, with a few links back to this forum.

Thanks for the feedback.
There's basically three generations of Nvidia Shield. The 2015 and 2017 versions will only work with AC-4 if you are connected to a sound bar or audio receiver that has ATMOS support. The 2019 Shield will work regardless of audio device, as it has a license to decode the AC-4 codec internally.
That's interesting I have many shields, and all but 1 function how you were saying

2015 Shield TV - No Audio - attached directly to TV (Expected)
2017 Shield TV Pro - No Audio - attached directly to TV (Expected)
2019 Shield TV Tube - Audio - Attached to soundbar (Figured this was due to soundbar)
2019 Shield TV Pro - No Audio - Attached to TV with Soundbar via ARC

curious why I'm not getting audio on the 2019 Shield TV Pro now

kcimpulse
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Re: 4K Content - Broadcasts Yet?

Post by kcimpulse »

Thank everybody for replying this is definitely a lot to take in but learning a ton. Also it seems that Super Bowl has confirmed they will not be shooting it in 4K damn CBS. https://www.theverge.com/2021/1/21/2224 ... lable-2021

I think when this went up on Kickstarter I just got giddy With the possibility of 4K broadcasts and some of the advanced features but I’ve been using the standard HD home run for many years now and love it so maybe I’m gonna try to sell that one and give it to a home that needs it at a good price.

But one can dream and I’m hoping that they get their act together for the Olympics.

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