ATSC 3.0: Phoenix - Jan 2021

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joblo
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Re: ATSC 3.0: Phoenix - Jan 2021

Post by joblo »

bobchase wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 4:52 pm
joblo wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 4:40 pm
Excellent move! Especially if they go in the same PLP with ABC and FOX.
Oh, you really don't want that - not enough bandwidth available.
No, I really do want that, for the reasons I gave in the previously referenced AVS post. Note that I'm not saying there should only be a single PLP or that all the streams should be in it, just the "Big-4", as the FCC refers to them in its Second R&O.

Ideally, KUTP would move to KFPH and then there would be room for the other 5 in one PLP, or at least that's what Ted Hand at WSOC Charlotte thinks, because that's his announced plan. But you're the one with the experience; is Ted right?

And btw, what is the current PLP config in Phoenix and which channels are in which pipe?

bobchase
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Re: ATSC 3.0: Phoenix - Jan 2021

Post by bobchase »

joblo wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 2:49 pm
bobchase wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 4:52 pm
joblo wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 4:40 pm
Excellent move! Especially if they go in the same PLP with ABC and FOX.
Oh, you really don't want that - not enough bandwidth available.
No, I really do want that, for the reasons I gave in the previously referenced AVS post. Note that I'm not saying there should only be a single PLP or that all the streams should be in it, just the "Big-4", as the FCC refers to them in its Second R&O.

Ideally, KUTP would move to KFPH and then there would be room for the other 5 in one PLP, or at least that's what Ted Hand at WSOC Charlotte thinks, because that's his announced plan. But you're the one with the experience; is Ted right?

And btw, what is the current PLP config in Phoenix and which channels are in which pipe?
If you are talking about "all on one", then yes, I agree with you. However when you said it first there were three PLP's up on that station and there isn't room for four streams in any of the PLPs, so you can see my confusion.

To answer your quality question, on a single PLP setup like the one on KHFP it is easy to get 5 streams up with no degradation of picture quality on as seen on 4k set. I've had 6.5 stations up (6 + a diginet) without signal reduction. Having said all that, I wish I had a way to look at 3.0 on a 2k TV like my old Sharp. I've just received a new STB and, if it works, maybe I'll try that.

The market right now has KFPH up with one PLP. We are experimenting with running two statmux's. One at the DASH level feeding one at the ROUTE level. We also broadcast the Univision "Broadcasters App", so statmuxing gets complicated with NRT data along for the ride. You need a TV to see the app because, today, no set-top box or IRD or tuner will show it.

KASW has three PLP's and is presently experimenting with signaling. Two streams are encoded to the DASH level and sent over to KASW where they are entered in the ROUTE/Signaling encapsulator along with two more streams encoded locally.

xmguy
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Re: ATSC 3.0: Phoenix - Jan 2021

Post by xmguy »

I'm thrilled to read TV Tech's write up on SFNs in Phoenix. Sounds like a mesh network of sorts.

https://www.tvtechnology.com/news/nextg ... robustness

joblo
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Re: ATSC 3.0: Phoenix - Jan 2021

Post by joblo »

bobchase wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:51 pm
joblo wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 2:49 pm
bobchase wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 4:52 pm Oh, you really don't want that - not enough bandwidth available.
No, I really do want that, for the reasons I gave in the previously referenced AVS post. Note that I'm not saying there should only be a single PLP or that all the streams should be in it, just the "Big-4", as the FCC refers to them in its Second R&O.

Ideally, KUTP would move to KFPH and then there would be room for the other 5 in one PLP, or at least that's what Ted Hand at WSOC Charlotte thinks, because that's his announced plan. But you're the one with the experience; is Ted right?

And btw, what is the current PLP config in Phoenix and which channels are in which pipe?
If you are talking about "all on one", then yes, I agree with you.
OMG, I better note the time and date! @bobchase agrees with @joblo!! Has Hell frozen over?!? ;)
However when you said it first there were three PLP's up on that station and there isn't room for four streams in any of the PLPs, so you can see my confusion.
"Confusion" is 3.0's middle name. Some days, the more I read about it, the less I think I know.

But I have another, unrelated question. I note that the FCC incorporated only A/321 and A/322 into its rules, and the latter currently has a sunset date. A/300 5.1.15 says, in part, "broadcast organizations in North America have selected the audio system defined in A/342, Part 2 as the audio system for use in Mexico, Canada and the U.S." So what organizations are those? The NAB and its Canadian and Mexican counterparts, or the NABA, or some others I haven't been able to find? And do they have public-facing documents indicating this like at FCC.gov and ATSC.org, or not?

bobchase
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Re: ATSC 3.0: Phoenix - Jan 2021

Post by bobchase »

I'll check with some folks who actually wrote these standards but I don't think that there is an 'authority' other than Dolby in A342 pt1 & pt2. I believe what you are reading is saying that in the America's the AC-4 system will be used as opposed to Korea where a different audio system is used.

nickk
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Re: ATSC 3.0: Phoenix - Jan 2021

Post by nickk »

Smart would be for broadcasters to simulcast both AC4 and AAC.

nickk
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Re: ATSC 3.0: Phoenix - Jan 2021

Post by nickk »

Important firmware update for customers in Phoenix:
viewtopic.php?f=126&t=20613

This fixes a problem detecting PLPs on physical channel 27.

Nick

xmguy
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Re: ATSC 3.0: Phoenix - Jan 2021

Post by xmguy »

nickk wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 2:00 pm Important firmware update for customers in Phoenix:
viewtopic.php?f=126&t=20613

This fixes a problem detecting PLPs on physical channel 27.

Nick
Nashville is doing work on WUXP 21. 3.0. Will this update apply here too? I was told elsewhere the Phoenix area and TN area is doing the same. I think.

nickk
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Re: ATSC 3.0: Phoenix - Jan 2021

Post by nickk »

xmguy wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 2:15 pm Nashville is doing work on WUXP 21. 3.0. Will this update apply here too? I was told elsewhere the Phoenix area and TN area is doing the same. I think.
Best to install - if they do the same thing channel 27 does in Phoenix the update will be needed.

Nick

xmguy
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Re: ATSC 3.0: Phoenix - Jan 2021

Post by xmguy »

nickk wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 3:06 pm
xmguy wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 2:15 pm Nashville is doing work on WUXP 21. 3.0. Will this update apply here too? I was told elsewhere the Phoenix area and TN area is doing the same. I think.
Best to install - if they do the same thing channel 27 does in Phoenix the update will be needed.

Nick
Nick,

Installed.
What change did they make to the PLPs?

nickk
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Re: ATSC 3.0: Phoenix - Jan 2021

Post by nickk »

xmguy wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 3:15 pm What change did they make to the PLPs?
It looks like they added a 3rd PLP utilizing HTI mode with inter subframes.

This is valid and supported, however we had a bug in the parsing of the inter subframe information.

Nick

xmguy
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Re: ATSC 3.0: Phoenix - Jan 2021

Post by xmguy »

nickk wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 3:39 pm
xmguy wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 3:15 pm What change did they make to the PLPs?
It looks like they added a 3rd PLP utilizing HTI mode with inter subframes.

This is valid and supported, however we had a bug in the parsing of the inter subframe information.

Nick
Hopefully it doesn’t use a higher modulation coding than 256.

xmguy
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Re: ATSC 3.0: Phoenix - Jan 2021

Post by xmguy »

Sorry. Realized that's Hybrid Time Interleave.

bobchase
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Re: ATSC 3.0: Phoenix - Jan 2021

Post by bobchase »

bobchase wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 9:13 pm I'll check with some folks who actually wrote these standards but I don't think that there is an 'authority' other than Dolby in A342 pt1 & pt2. I believe what you are reading is saying that in the America's the AC-4 system will be used as opposed to Korea where a different audio system is used.
Joblo

Checked to day and, yes, it is Dolby on the North American continent as expressed in A342.
You said that: "Confusion" is 3.0's middle name. Some days, the more I read about it, the less I think I know." I've had 3.0 on the air for 3 years and every time I think that I'm "AJ Squared Away", I find out that I'm 30 dB behind the curve. Welcome to the bleeding edge.

signcarver
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Re: ATSC 3.0: Phoenix - Jan 2021

Post by signcarver »

Not seeing 27 this morning... tried before and after updating firmware (signal strength at -31dBm is there but nothing else as if viewing the stats from a non-atsc3 tuner) as I was recording too much last night to update firmware then.

I know before for the past few weeks I would see "3" PLPs and couldn't lock onto the third (not sure if really 3 plps as 2 were marked as plp0 so try to lock on one both would be locked and one was qpsk and the other as qam with no number... so 2 plp0 and one plp11 I think) but everything was working fine as far as the channels went with the app, though config_gui would show no data on all 4 channels until actually attempted to view (then it would pull in 2, then pull in the other 2 if one tried to view those, also when not viewing symbol quality would drop to 0 periodically). However 90% of the time any app other than the hdhomerun app seemed to have issues pulling it in but the hdhomerun app was solid in viewing any of those 4 channels.

Looking forward to seeing how it looks when it comes back up.

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