ATSC 3.0: Portland - Jan 2021

ATSC 3.0 Forum
Post Reply
talkenrain
Posts: 30
Joined: Fri May 18, 2012 1:28 pm
x 7

ATSC 3.0: Portland - Jan 2021

Post by talkenrain »

adaptive wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 11:27 pm
helloworld321 wrote: Sat Dec 05, 2020 5:31 am
KU7PDX wrote: Tue Nov 10, 2020 6:21 pm
As soon as the networks start broadcasting in 4K (ABC, CBS, NBC, Fox, PBS), you'll see it start coming to local markets. It will be well publicized too.
If two football games (NFL + NCAA) games are broadcast on any combination of the four networks via OTT ATSC 3.0, per week, before the 2024 Olympics, I'll eat a lemon.

The national networks have no imminent interest in spending money to enable 4K broadcasts. Neither do the local stations. Don't expect anything until 2025, at the earliest.
You might very well be right. I was hoping to make good use of it during the 2021 Tokyo Olympics. I think that at this point, given the rate of development of the app for Android\iOS\+ 3rd party devices and amount of 4K content being broadcasted by the local stations, it might be best to make changes to the HDHomerRun software so it can display the channels that broadcast in ATSC 3.0 and ATSC 1.0 separately so we can make use of the ASTC 1.0 broadcast.
I'm optimistic about the olympics. If it happens this year. I think there may be a good chance for some 4k content. I think the local broadcasters are ready, the just need a 4k feed and the apps have made progress.

KU7PDX
Posts: 28
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2017 10:25 am
Device ID: 1080277F
Location: Hillsboro, Oregon, USA
x 6
Contact:

Re: ATSC 3.0: Portland - Jan 2021

Post by KU7PDX »

Since the Portland market is in an ATSC 3.0 "lighthouse" mode, there isn't the bandwidth available to any single station to broadcast 4K video. Those improvements will start showing up once we're able to each have our own ATSC 3.0 transmitters (and the ATSC 1.0 ones are discontinued).

talkenrain
Posts: 30
Joined: Fri May 18, 2012 1:28 pm
x 7

Re: ATSC 3.0: Portland - Jan 2021

Post by talkenrain »

KU7PDX wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 7:07 pm Since the Portland market is in an ATSC 3.0 "lighthouse" mode, there isn't the bandwidth available to any single station to broadcast 4K video. Those improvements will start showing up once we're able to each have our own ATSC 3.0 transmitters (and the ATSC 1.0 ones are discontinued).
What do you mean "lighthouse mode" ?

KU7PDX
Posts: 28
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2017 10:25 am
Device ID: 1080277F
Location: Hillsboro, Oregon, USA
x 6
Contact:

Re: ATSC 3.0: Portland - Jan 2021

Post by KU7PDX »

talkenrain wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 7:25 pm What do you mean "lighthouse mode" ?
Right now in order to launch NextGen TV in the United States, the FCC did not grant broadcasters a second frequency to use, so broadcasters are collaborating to get it on the air.

Here in Portland, we have two "lighthouse" transmitters, KRCW on UHF 33 and KPDX on UHF 30. Those transmitters have the following channels all combined on them:

KRCW's ATSC 3.0 Transmitter:
KATU 2-1
KOIN 6-1
KRCW 32-1

KPDX's ATSC 3.0 Transmitter:
KGW 8-1
KOPB 10-1
KPTV 12-1
KPDX 49-1

Once the simulcast period is done (3 to 5 years depending on market), broadcasters will convert their existing ATSC 1.0 transmitters to ATSC 3.0 transmitters and KRCW and KPDX will have the full bandwidth available and can reallocate it as they would like.

kyl416
Posts: 114
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2014 12:09 pm
Device ID: 1080DB11
Location: Tobyhanna, PA
x 25
Contact:

Re: ATSC 3.0: Portland - Jan 2021

Post by kyl416 »

KU7PDX wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 7:40 pmOnce the simulcast period is done (3 to 5 years depending on market), broadcasters will convert their existing ATSC 1.0 transmitters to ATSC 3.0 transmitters and KRCW and KPDX will have the full bandwidth available and can reallocate it as they would like.
There's a caveat to that, it is not mandatory that they shutdown ATSC 1.0 service after those 5 years. They will only voluntarily do that if after 5 years ATSC 3.0 tuner penetration is high enough that they (and their network and advertisers) don't lose access to a significant portion of their OTA audience if they eliminate ATSC 1.0 broadcasts. It also doesn't help that currently there's no plans for coupons for free converters, or a mandate for manufacturers to include ATSC 3.0 tuners in all TVs sold in the USA like there was for the 2009 transition.

talkenrain
Posts: 30
Joined: Fri May 18, 2012 1:28 pm
x 7

Re: ATSC 3.0: Portland - Jan 2021

Post by talkenrain »

KU7PDX wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 7:40 pm
talkenrain wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 7:25 pm What do you mean "lighthouse mode" ?
Right now in order to launch NextGen TV in the United States, the FCC did not grant broadcasters a second frequency to use, so broadcasters are collaborating to get it on the air.

Here in Portland, we have two "lighthouse" transmitters, KRCW on UHF 33 and KPDX on UHF 30. Those transmitters have the following channels all combined on them:

KRCW's ATSC 3.0 Transmitter:
KATU 2-1
KOIN 6-1
KRCW 32-1

KPDX's ATSC 3.0 Transmitter:
KGW 8-1
KOPB 10-1
KPTV 12-1
KPDX 49-1

Once the simulcast period is done (3 to 5 years depending on market), broadcasters will convert their existing ATSC 1.0 transmitters to ATSC 3.0 transmitters and KRCW and KPDX will have the full bandwidth available and can reallocate it as they would like.
Very Interesting, and a little frustrating. So what bandwidth is each broadcast limited to and what are the audio limits with this type of rollout? A big part of my excitement over ATSC 3.0 was its audio capabilities. 4k video is equally important, but expected improved audio in the short term because my assumption was better audio was already available from the networks but ATSC 1 could not deliver the fidelity.

kyl416
Posts: 114
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2014 12:09 pm
Device ID: 1080DB11
Location: Tobyhanna, PA
x 25
Contact:

Re: ATSC 3.0: Portland - Jan 2021

Post by kyl416 »

talkenrain wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 9:19 pmbut expected improved audio in the short term because my assumption was better audio was already available from the networks but ATSC 1 could not deliver the fidelity.
The network's feeds originate as AC-3 with 384 kbps for 5.1 or 192 kbps for stereo, which is the same codec and bitrate that most ATSC 1.0 stations carry it.

talkenrain
Posts: 30
Joined: Fri May 18, 2012 1:28 pm
x 7

Re: ATSC 3.0: Portland - Jan 2021

Post by talkenrain »

kyl416 wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 9:53 pm
talkenrain wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 9:19 pmbut expected improved audio in the short term because my assumption was better audio was already available from the networks but ATSC 1 could not deliver the fidelity.
The network's feeds originate as AC-3 with 384 kbps for 5.1 or 192 kbps for stereo, which is the same codec and bitrate that most ATSC 1.0 stations carry it.
Geez, you’re killing me with these details... I think I should have talked to you before jumping on board. Looks like it’s gonna be a while before we’ll see (or hear) ANY difference. I could swear I’d noticed more dynamic range when listening to the ac-4 feed. Oh well, at least I’ll be way ahead of my neighbors...

Lost Dog
Posts: 131
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2007 11:46 pm
x 4

Re: ATSC 3.0: Portland - Jan 2021

Post by Lost Dog »

This has been a great discussion.... Thanks much for the insight!

Also explains why the ATSC3 is running with such low bandwidth here. In many cases it looks much worse than it's ATSC 1.0 counterpart...

jasonl
Expert
Posts: 15445
Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2007 9:23 pm
x 31

Re: ATSC 3.0: Portland - Jan 2021

Post by jasonl »

talkenrain wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 10:35 pm
kyl416 wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 9:53 pm
talkenrain wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 9:19 pmbut expected improved audio in the short term because my assumption was better audio was already available from the networks but ATSC 1 could not deliver the fidelity.
The network's feeds originate as AC-3 with 384 kbps for 5.1 or 192 kbps for stereo, which is the same codec and bitrate that most ATSC 1.0 stations carry it.
Geez, you’re killing me with these details... I think I should have talked to you before jumping on board. Looks like it’s gonna be a while before we’ll see (or hear) ANY difference. I could swear I’d noticed more dynamic range when listening to the ac-4 feed. Oh well, at least I’ll be way ahead of my neighbors...
Most broadcast networks don't feed AC-3, they feed Dolby E or some other commercial standard, and the station then encodes to AC-3 for broadcast.

It's entirely possible for an ATSC 3 broadcast to have more dynamic range or just better sound than the ATSC broadcast. On their ATSC broadcasts, most stations use audio processors that are designed to level out the volume of audio from different sources to keep the station compliant with FCC rules that prohibit EXCESSIVELY LOUD COMMERCIALS. Some of these audio processors are wielded by people with decades of experience with audio mixing to produce something that complies with rules while doing as little damage to the source as possible. Most are run by people who are lacking the knowledge or time to set it up properly and just stick with the default "crush everything" setting. If the ATSC 3 feed is getting pulled out before that processor, it's quite possible that the original dynamic range will still be present.

talkenrain
Posts: 30
Joined: Fri May 18, 2012 1:28 pm
x 7

Re: ATSC 3.0: Portland - Jan 2021

Post by talkenrain »

jasonl wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 6:33 pm
talkenrain wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 10:35 pm
kyl416 wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 9:53 pm
The network's feeds originate as AC-3 with 384 kbps for 5.1 or 192 kbps for stereo, which is the same codec and bitrate that most ATSC 1.0 stations carry it.
Geez, you’re killing me with these details... I think I should have talked to you before jumping on board. Looks like it’s gonna be a while before we’ll see (or hear) ANY difference. I could swear I’d noticed more dynamic range when listening to the ac-4 feed. Oh well, at least I’ll be way ahead of my neighbors...
Most broadcast networks don't feed AC-3, they feed Dolby E or some other commercial standard, and the station then encodes to AC-3 for broadcast.

It's entirely possible for an ATSC 3 broadcast to have more dynamic range or just better sound than the ATSC broadcast. On their ATSC broadcasts, most stations use audio processors that are designed to level out the volume of audio from different sources to keep the station compliant with FCC rules that prohibit EXCESSIVELY LOUD COMMERCIALS. Some of these audio processors are wielded by people with decades of experience with audio mixing to produce something that complies with rules while doing as little damage to the source as possible. Most are run by people who are lacking the knowledge or time to set it up properly and just stick with the default "crush everything" setting. If the ATSC 3 feed is getting pulled out before that processor, it's quite possible that the original dynamic range will still be present.
Thats what I was hoping for and so fare I'd noted a real improvement in not only the dynamic range but the overall fidelity seemed better. The local news now gives my subwoofers a work out very the ATSC 1.0 equivalent sounds flat by comparison. The real test was last night, After reading "KYL416" post, I did an A/B comparison of the results of ATSC 1.0 to ATSC 3.0 audio with my wife. She's not technical at all but she consistently chose the ATSC 3.0 audio over the ATSC 1.0. The feed was from our local news but I think even the network feed sounds better, wider, with more dynamic range and deeper base and more of a punch. mike going from an mp3 to a CD... Maybe wishful thinking but it's all I've got for now...

My 2¢

Post Reply