ATSC 3.0: Raleigh/Durham - Jan 2021

ATSC 3.0 Forum
DigitalBrad
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Re: ATSC 3.0: Raleigh/Durham - Jan 2021

Post by DigitalBrad »

CEG3 wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 7:20 pm I'm in the Raleigh/Durham market and I've been hovering over the buy button for a couple of months. I'm finding it hard to spend 200.00 for 3.0 if I'm not getting much for my money at this point. I would like to upgrade from two to four tuners. I know we now have a number of stations onboard, though I think I was told they are sharing two different towers, so the broadcasts may not be optimal yet, and PBS is about to drop. Anybody recommend or not recommend buying the tuner at this point? I've been watching for refurbished on the website, but so far no joy.
I'm waiting for WRAL to increase their power. If WRAL / WRAZ / PBS are important to you, then it will be worth it (if you can pick up the very low power signal). For all the others crammed on RF 14, it really doesn't look any better quality to me. CBS 17 bounces if look closely. Honest feedback.

CBme
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Re: ATSC 3.0: Raleigh/Durham - Jan 2021

Post by CBme »

CEG3 wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 5:53 am This is all very good information. Slow tuning is already enough to cause me to stick with SD DVR software instead of the painfully slow Plex tuning. Plex also transcodes the video, so SD looks better. I'm basically happy with SD DVR software and maybe the bug that bothers me the most is if you only have two tuners and delete two recordings in progress you can't tune a channel until the scheduled recording time ends. Even a power cycle doesn't re-enable TV watching until then. This is the reason I began to think about a quad.

It sounds like the 3.0 tuner is not completely reliable to begin with and you made no mention of extra programming, 4K, and etc. I think 4K is good while away and your comments make me realize I might get more life out of a 1.0 tuner i bought today than thought I would.
Plex fixed the speed of their tuner a little bit ago so it is not nearly as painful. Takes about 1 -2 seconds longer to tune than the HDHR software on the PC. But if you are watching on a device that it is transcoding to, then yes, that is going to take even longer. But note that transcoding objectively makes things worse, not better. Ideally you don't notice the difference, but in no case should real-time transcoded stream make anything look better than the native stream (unless the playback device is glitching on the native transport stream for some reason).

As for the 3.0 tuner, there is not a reliability issue with the hardware. csdesigns was simply saying that if you want to watch the atsc 3.0 channels with the tuner (you don't have to) there are currently complications that you don't have with 1.0 stations. Not something that someone just looking for TV that works without issue is going to want to deal with. You could get a HDHR 5k and play nothing but 1.0 channels without issue. Net is if you aren't interested in playing with 3.0 channels/being part of what is essentially an extended beta test, simply because you like to play with new tech and don't mind paying a bit extra now for something that may not provide any meaningful visual or audio difference until years from now, then something like the quattro is probably a better choice. Reality is by the time there are regular 4k broadcasts (or meaningfully better 1080p ones) and the ac-4 compatibility issues are resolved in most/all devices there may be an updated version of the 4k tuner for you to consider, perhaps one with 4 3.0 tuners.

csdesigns
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Re: ATSC 3.0: Raleigh/Durham - Jan 2021

Post by csdesigns »

CEG3 wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 5:53 am Slow tuning is already enough to cause me to stick with SD DVR software instead of the painfully slow Plex tuning. Plex also transcodes the video, so SD looks better.
The tuning time in Plex is very much device-dependent in my experience. Some devices, like certain models of the Fire TV series, can require transcode to initiate playback. The Shield Plex client does not actually force transcoding, but it still isn't instantaneous, due to Plex initially needing to buffer the channel and send to the client. The Channels app only 'feels' instantaneous if you are doing a direct connect to the HDHomerun device and therefore only buffering on your client device (i.e. server bypass). Issue here with any solution that tunes in this manner is that you are using the (often limited) on-board storage of the client playback device, which can be bad in the long-run for a number of reasons, especially in a live-tv environment. If you use the Channels server for live DVR, then there is a buffered experience. Channels may be slightly faster at tuning than Plex, but in reality, it isn't that much different – for me at least... my experience has been that the Channels app will show a paused frame for n number of milliseconds and then start playing, whereas Plex will show you the spinning wheel and then immediately begin playing; but overall, the total latency of both apps to getting to an actual live video+audio stream is very similar, with Channels seemingly only ms faster.
CEG3 wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 5:53 am You made a lot of sense suggesting buying a second SD dual tuner for no more than 99 dollars new. I considered this a while back I thought about it last night and my desire is real world TV tuning and much less so enthusiast interests in 3.0.
Note, that when I mentioned latency with ATSC 3.0 tuning, I wasn't referring to the delay being appreciably worse than Tivo, app, or other type of SP-delivered service. What I was referring to is something that it appears all ATSC 3.0 tuners are dealing with right now with this generation of tuners (so not just HDHomerun, but TVs and other generic ATSC 3.0 tuners as well). While trying to tune to an ATSC 1.0 channel might take n number of seconds longer than it does with a SP service, ATSC 3.0, in my experience at least across multiple different tuners, has been n+m longer.
CEG3 wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 5:53 am I did split it once and I don't think I noticed any loss, but common sense tells me splitting is not likely to improve things
I live in a great area for OTA, so no complaints here. I'm able to use a single antenna connected to a powered amp splitter than then feeds four of my HDHomeruns with no signal issues.
CEG3 wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 5:53 am It sounds like the 3.0 tuner is not completely reliable to begin with and you made no mention of extra programming, 4K, and etc. I think 4K is good while away and your comments make me realize I might get more life out of a 1.0 tuner i bought today than thought I would.
The hardware has been pretty reliable for me, at least since about January after some of the initial fw issues were ironed out. I don't really consider most of the issues with the device to be something that SD can resolve – the market just isn't mature enough yet. You definitely should not buy any ATSC 3.0 tuner on the promise of 4K at this time. Down the line that will possibly be something that is available, but doing so on that promise alone would end up making you feel very disappointed in the here and now.
CEG3 wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 5:53 am I might just decide to pick up a refurbished quad from SD for 129.99. My dual is one of the older Connects. I know the only difference in that one and the newer one is the housing. The card is the same I was told. A quad would make it easier and ease my splitting concerns and save me the cost of a 30 foot run of Ethernet cable.
I'm still rocking HDHR3-US, as well as HDHR3-TECH, in addition to my 2x ATSC 3.0 Quadros and ATSC 1.0 Quadro. They've been rock solid. And the cost of a 30' Ethernet cable is usually <$10, so that shouldn't really be a deterrent, unless you mean you need to hire someone to install for you.
CBme wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:51 am Reality is by the time there are regular 4k broadcasts (or meaningfully better 1080p ones) and the ac-4 compatibility issues are resolved in most/all devices there may be an updated version of the 4k tuner for you to consider, perhaps one with 4 3.0 tuners.
Indeed, this was the intent of what I was trying to state.
Last edited by csdesigns on Tue Feb 23, 2021 1:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.

csdesigns
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Re: ATSC 3.0: Raleigh/Durham - Jan 2021

Post by csdesigns »

DigitalBrad wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:41 am For all the others crammed on RF 14, it really doesn't look any better quality to me. CBS 17 bounces if look closely. Honest feedback.
That has to do with the conversion from a true 1080i source to HEVC's 'fake' 1080i mode. The bouncing is an artifact in how the decoder is forced to interleave the opposite fields/frames on playback. Yes, it can be annoying, especially when there is a ticker on the content such as during sports. I think this is one of the main benefits to just encoding to 1080p outright from a 1080i source in this instance (such as what WRAL is doing with 105.11). The quality of this type of conversion won't yield much increase in encoded picture quality, but it does in decoded user experience, which should equally be taken into account (unfortunately it is not however).

DigitalBrad
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Re: ATSC 3.0: Raleigh/Durham - Jan 2021

Post by DigitalBrad »

csdesigns wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 1:00 pm
DigitalBrad wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:41 am For all the others crammed on RF 14, it really doesn't look any better quality to me. CBS 17 bounces if look closely. Honest feedback.
That has to do with the conversion from a true 1080i source to HEVC's 'fake' 1080i mode. The bouncing is an artifact in how the decoder is forced to interleave the opposite fields/frames on playback. Yes, it can be annoying, especially when there is a ticker on the content such as during sports. I think this is one of the main benefits to just encoding to 1080p outright from a 1080i source in this instance (such as what WRAL is doing with 105.11). The quality of this type of conversion won't yield much increase in encoded picture quality, but it does in decoded user experience, which should equally be taken into account (unfortunately it is not however).
Yep. It's ridiculous honestly. ABC 11 is the only one that looks a bit better to me and it's not great.

CEG3
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Re: ATSC 3.0: Raleigh/Durham - Jan 2021

Post by CEG3 »

Yeah, I got my Quatro today from SD eBay store, and the physical condition could have been closer to new for 130.00, which was a little disappointing. I'm a little spoiled I guess by how nice Amazon certified refurbs are, but I am noting tuning channels on my devices (Android, Shield, Amazon Cubes) is unacceptably slower. This is the kind tech "issue" I'm not going to be patient with. I can see myself going back to my Connect. I guess this is normal. The Connect has been fast and pretty much instantaneous in changing channels. Someone commented on my comment about Plex turning being slow. My experience has been on the same devices running SD software. It is what it is. My experience is the one that matters and I have to be happy with it. For me Plex doesn't deliver as good a picture or as fast tuning on the same devices.

OK, oddly enough, the tuning has sped up and seems OK, maybe it needed to literally warm up. It did just come off the FedEx truck. To further qualify, the slow tuning using Plex is a much bigger issue than the video quality. Maybe if I had a better overall experience using it I would "see" the picture more favorably.

nickk
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Re: ATSC 3.0: Raleigh/Durham - Jan 2021

Post by nickk »

CEG3 wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 11:42 am Yeah, I got my Quatro today from SD eBay store, and the physical condition could have been closer to new for 130.00, which was a little disappointing. I'm a little spoiled I guess by how nice Amazon certified refurbs are, but I am noting tuning channels on my devices (Android, Shield, Amazon Cubes) is unacceptably slower. This is the kind tech "issue" I'm not going to be patient with. I can see myself going back to my Connect. I guess this is normal. The Connect has been fast and pretty much instantaneous in changing channels. Someone commented on my comment about Plex turning being slow. My experience has been on the same devices running SD software. It is what it is. My experience is the one that matters and I have to be happy with it. For me Plex doesn't deliver as good a picture or as fast tuning on the same devices.
All HDHomeRun CONNECT models including the QUATRO have near-identical tune times for ATSC 1.0 channels.

If you unplugged your previous HDHomeRun the DVR may not have noticed it has gone and it may be trying to tune using the old HDHomeRun before it tries the new HDHomeRun. That would result in a much slow channel change time.

So I can get the full picture - what are the device IDs of your old and new HDHomeRun units, and are you using the HDHomeRun DVR?

Nick

CEG3
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Re: ATSC 3.0: Raleigh/Durham - Jan 2021

Post by CEG3 »

You probably commented before I edited my original comments. thanks

CEG3
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Re: ATSC 3.0: Raleigh/Durham - Jan 2021

Post by CEG3 »

Any chance that at the current level of 3.0 development you are seeing a better picture on the 28.3 Comet station, for example, with the ATSC 3.0 tuner?

Mr. H
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Re: ATSC 3.0: Raleigh/Durham - Jan 2021

Post by Mr. H »

None of the secondary subchannels are on any of the ATSC3 stations in the market yet. Those are still being carried over the ATSC1 transmitters.

jfabernathy
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Re: ATSC 3.0: Raleigh/Durham - Jan 2021

Post by jfabernathy »

I currently use the ATSC 1.0 HDHR Quatro with a Clearstream 4Max antenna and receive all the local Raleigh/Durham stations well. I note that a lot of the discussion in this topic is technical with early adopter perspectives.

What I'd like to know is, are we at the point with ATSC 3.0 and the SD HDHR Quatro 4K that I should rush out and get one to watch better quality TV?

For example is NHL hockey better on NBC than it currently is on ATSC 1.0 1080i? Do they really broadcast a 1080P or 4K signal where the original content is higher quality?

My main TV is a Samsung UHD 4K connected to an Nvidia Shield 2017 version and works with the SD HDHR app.

What will be my experience if I order the HDHR 4k tuner today in the RDU area??

joblo
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Re: ATSC 3.0: Raleigh/Durham - Jan 2021

Post by joblo »

jfabernathy wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 5:31 amWhat I'd like to know is, are we at the point with ATSC 3.0 and the SD HDHR Quatro 4K that I should rush out and get one to watch better quality TV?
No.

https://www.avsforum.com/threads/atsc-3 ... t-60560315

Crash*N*Burn
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Re: ATSC 3.0: Raleigh/Durham - Jan 2021

Post by Crash*N*Burn »

Anyone else not getting atsc 3.0 channels after the last update?

fisherofmen58
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Re: ATSC 3.0: Raleigh/Durham - Jan 2021

Post by fisherofmen58 »

I just updated the app and firmware, no issues, still getting all the Raleigh area ATSC 3 channels

youngota
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Re: ATSC 3.0: Raleigh/Durham - Jan 2021

Post by youngota »

Thanks for all the feedback earlier. I've been using an HD HomeRun Setup with Channels DVR (operating on a Windows PC - a nice little HP EliteDesk G2 mini) and an Apple TV 4K (purchased thru Costco for their return policy in case Apple updates it in a few weeks).

Honestly, it's been very solid. Probably the only thing that I'm not a fan of is the Apple TV 4K remote ... and that's nothing to do with HD HomeRun or Channels. This setup has resolved a longstanding issue with poor reception on the 11.1 local ABC affiliate as the 111.1 ATSC 3 feed comes in better at my house.

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