How do you justify the 4K in the shop.

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Crash*N*Burn
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How do you justify the 4K in the shop.

Post by Crash*N*Burn »

https://shop.silicondust.com/shop/produ ... -hdhr5-4k/

How do you justify the 4K device in the shop when 90% of the text is misleading at best???

According to the sales page I should be about to use it with ANY device. So update the Android app so I can see all the channels my tuner can see on my LG V35 ThinQ!!!

NedS
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Re: How do you justify the 4K in the shop.

Post by NedS »

Everything stated on that page is factual.

Crash*N*Burn
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Re: How do you justify the 4K in the shop.

Post by Crash*N*Burn »

Maybe factual, misleading at best!

nickk
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Re: How do you justify the 4K in the shop.

Post by nickk »

What specifically do you think is miss-leading?

There will be 4K content - networks we are talking to are promising 4K content and we are seeing 4K content at test events.

ATSC 1 has HD but not every ATSC 1 channel is HD, Likewise ATSC 3 has 4K but not every ATSC 3 channel will be 4K.

Nick

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signcarver
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Re: How do you justify the 4K in the shop.

Post by signcarver »

I find nothing wrong with it but it might be nice for a disclaimer about AC4 and HEVC device/plex compatibility for AC3 stations but everything in there isn't really misleading to most looking for an ATSC 3.0 tuner but one would have to know about the HEVC/AC4 challenges... but again, such isn't really misleading but may be a point to consider if choosing between the hdhr5-4US and hdhr5-4k and if the $50-$100 difference makes sense for now.

If I was a new HDHomeRun user at $50 difference I think it a no brainer to get the updated unit or else I would need a new one within a couple of years... but there have often been sales on the quatro that may make it up to a $100 difference that may make a user wait and in a couple of years have both when they really probably should wait into jumping to ATSC 3.0. On top of that in 2 years there may be an update to 4 tuners for ATSC 3.0 and/or the price comes down to replace the regular quatro.

Unfortunately a brand new HDHomeRun user may find a better experience at this time to not mess with the ATSC 3.0 things. But for me this adoption of new technologies is part of the fun in getting it now. it would probably be a bit better when the (supposed) new firmware that allows both ATSC 1.0 and 3.0 channels of the same number be accessed for some of the possibly problematic devices/platforms listed when such would be their only device to allow the channel be accessed more easily as many things now do import the channel list rather than use legacy methods to generate such list... for some it is a mess right now that to me the fix would almost always want the URL for an ATSC3.0 station to add &ATSC3 to it, otherwise default to the 1.0 channel (though for me personally since I have so many other tuners, this doesn't affect me as much as by default as nothing is using the ATSC 3.0 channels (yet) unless I use other means but am thinking for the users who have just the one device and don't have software/clients/devices that are really capable of 3.0. To implement this it would probably also require a setting in the DVR to try and default to ATSC 3.0 or not. Eventually it would probably would be best to default to ATSC3 everywhere but for the casual user that time isn't now.

Crash*N*Burn
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Re: How do you justify the 4K in the shop.

Post by Crash*N*Burn »

Legally nothing is wrong. But as you are trying to sell this product to the masses and until you are able to allow users to use or not use the atsc3.0 signals this product is a marketing nightmare. Yes this works GREAT in any atsc1.0 market, but very problematic from a marketing point of view.

I'm not trying to kill this product, but keep it from being killed do to a lack understanding of basic marketing. Building a better mouse is only useful if layman can use it easily. That can't be said of this product. So if someone has a really back experience and feel like that they were mislead, 1 bad experience will be shared with 10 people. While 10 good experiences might get shared once. Marketing 101.

We all believed in this product to be early adopters, and if I was a new customer on your website and bought this I would be very unhappy with my purchase.

I know the pitfalls of bleeding edge, there's a reason why it's called the bleeding edge.

The criticism is founded in logic and to hopefully make the experience for John & jane Doe painless.

hancox
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Re: How do you justify the 4K in the shop.

Post by hancox »

I really don't get the hate on this subject. Maybe I'm more nuanced as I've had an extend (with transcoding), and now the Quatro.

No signal conversion was ever promised - you get what you get, and clients need to be in-line to support it. Combine that with the expectable rollout pain from the stations (and releases in turn by SD), none of this is that shocking.

Of all the 4k standards mess, this one might be the most honest. As someone now suffering with HLG issues across multiple clients, this 4k/audio one is a walk in the park.

csdesigns
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Re: How do you justify the 4K in the shop.

Post by csdesigns »

Crash*N*Burn wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 8:21 pm Legally nothing is wrong. But as you are trying to sell this product to the masses and until you are able to allow users to use or not use the atsc3.0 signals this product is a marketing nightmare. Yes this works GREAT in any atsc1.0 market, but very problematic from a marketing point of view.
I hate to say it (as a very long-time SD customer and as someone who has owned networked ATSC tuners since 2004), but I definitely see the point being made here. I don't really blame SD for much of the growing pains many of us are experiencing with ATSC 3.0 (widespread general support for AC-4 is really lacking right now; the stations broadcasting these ATSC 3.0 signals know this, and yet they are not offering a backwards-compatible AC-3 track, which IMHO would have been the wise thing to do, even for us on the 'bleeding edge'). However, I would recommend that SD makes better mention on the product page of some of the potential issues that could be experienced by an end user if purchasing one of these new devices [edit: I realized shortly after posting this that there has been a new sw version released for many devices that may address some of these issues, but I haven't had the opportunity to test them yet – I do hope that this is true, and if it is, then great work to SD and I think this alleviates one of the greatest weaknesses in the current product ecosystem].
Crash*N*Burn wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 8:21 pm We all believed in this product to be early adopters, and if I was a new customer on your website and bought this I would be very unhappy with my purchase.
Exactly. If I were someone who just decided to go this route after cord-cutting, and went off a recommendation from someone that I should just get a HDHomerun, my default position would be to either get the cheapest tuner or the latest-and-greatest. And if that user saw '4K' in the product specs, that promise alone would probably persuade them towards the 'bleeding edge' product, for future-proofing purposes, unless they were on a really tight budget.

So imagine being that user, expecting a really good out of the box experience based on everything that they've read, and then tuning into a channel that they can't hear audio on, or at best, hear audio in really poorly down-mixed stereo. Even worse, the picture quality of most of these stations right now is sub-cable even.

Again, these aren't necessarily SD issues, and I certainly don't think there is anything SD could do about the PQ problem. But they could have certainly helped themselves out by updating their own tuning apps to support AC-4 decoding at launch; either that, or only launch with the DEV version until they have had time to more fully bake-in features that the general public will require for everyday use (like being able to just ignore the ATSC 3.0 channels in the tuned channel list for the time being until broader support is available).
hancox wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 7:11 am I really don't get the hate on this subject... No signal conversion was ever promised - you get what you get, and clients need to be in-line to support it. Combine that with the expectable rollout pain from the stations (and releases in turn by SD), none of this is that shocking.
I don't think people are hating on SD per sé. I do think it is reasonable that SD offers the ability to hear audio – kind of an important facet for an audio/video medium don't you think? – from within their own apps (even if that requires transcoding the audio). But yes, the majority of this rollout mess should be placed at the foot of the broadcasting industry. I'm sure this will get better in short time, so I don't have any qualms with the product or anything. But I think most of us urging SD to do better are not doing so for our own purpose, it is so SD can make a better product for those with less experience with these new technological burdens.

hancox
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Re: How do you justify the 4K in the shop.

Post by hancox »

csdesigns wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 9:11 am
hancox wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 7:11 am I really don't get the hate on this subject... No signal conversion was ever promised - you get what you get, and clients need to be in-line to support it. Combine that with the expectable rollout pain from the stations (and releases in turn by SD), none of this is that shocking.
I don't think people are hating on SD per sé. I do think it is reasonable that SD offers the ability to hear audio – kind of an important facet for an audio/video medium don't you think? – from within their own apps (even if that requires transcoding the audio). But yes, the majority of this rollout mess should be placed at the foot of the broadcasting industry. I'm sure this will get better in short time, so I don't have any qualms with the product or anything. But I think most of us urging SD to do better are not doing so for our own purpose, it is so SD can make a better product for those with less experience with these new technological burdens.
It sends AC4 bitstream to clients. If the client can't handle that, it's a client issue. *Maybe* they can put something in their own app to get around this, but it's a long shot.
I tend to think that the way they're doing it (working through issues with known workable setups) is the right approach - maybe it yields an "a-ha" moment that provides a fix for non-working ones? Either way, people have to remember that this is the very bleeding edge - it's not like there is even a national broadcast equivalent to an ASTC3 station - the number of cooks in the kitchen will cause problems here. Hopefully, something ends up moving on the broadcast or client or software front to solve the issue.

Hell - i have a better reason to be angry - i have an extend (which *does* transcode as a feature), and i can't use my Roku on my old Samsung TV, due to decoding on the TV end. Fire Stick works fine. I STILL don't blame SD, even though i technically could for not transcoding audio on a transcoding device.

csdesigns
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Re: How do you justify the 4K in the shop.

Post by csdesigns »

hancox wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 11:31 am It sends AC4 bitstream to clients. If the client can't handle that, it's a client issue. *Maybe* they can put something in their own app to get around this, but it's a long shot.
I would understand your argument more if it weren't for the fact that SD has already published new versions of their apps that do now support AC-4 decoding on many more devices. And I'm not referring to those who wonder why AC-4 passthrough to external devices isn't working, or why some third party app is behaving poorly with the streams – that definitely isn't and never should be SD's concern. But for the vast majority of customers, listening to the audio track of a particular ATSC 3.0 channel wasn't an option at launch, or even for the month after launch. I guess that's part of the problem with having an official first-party tuning/viewing app – there is an implicit expectation by the end user that the product put out there will, at the very least, be appropriately supported by said first party's own sw development efforts.

I applaud SD for releasing what I personally feel are timely updates to better support audio decoding (even if it isn't perfect yet, it shows progress and attention to what their customers are asking for). I always suspected that they were going to enable in-app AC-4 decoding sooner rather than later, but for many people, not being able to hear audio at launch of this product meant that it was nothing more than a development tool. Which would have been perfectly fine if that was the only version they sold (or shipped to the kickstarter supporters) from October until recently. I have two units because I need these devices for my job and knew there was going to be some growing pains with everything ATSC 3.0-related. But for the standard consumer-oriented version of the product, it shouldn't be too difficult to put your 'everyday Joe' cap on and relate to how the initial experience out of the box probably wasn't the best for someone who didn't fully appreciate what they may have been getting themselves into.

I'd venture that 99% of the general population doesn't know what ATSC 3.0 or 'Next-Gen' TV even is. It therefore should not be difficult to understand their predicament if purchasing one of these devices. As mentioned previously, the vast majority of consumers either want the cheapest option, or the one that appears to have the highest technical spec – and ATSC 3.0, at the very least, sounds better than ATSC 1.0.

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