ATSC 3.0: Raleigh/Durham - 2020

ATSC 3.0 Forum
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csdesigns
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Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2019 2:21 pm
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Re: ATSC 3.0: Raleigh/Durham

Post by csdesigns »

DigitalBrad wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 7:29 pm Nick,

Just updated to the new firmware and I can now see 150.11 (50.1) and 105.11 (5.1) in my tuner and on the apps, but they still do not tune or work. However, the SD HVEC versions 150.10 (50.1) and 105.10 (5.1) both are viewable like before. I have a very weak signal and am not sure if that it my issue. You should still have access to my logs and my open support ticket.

EDIT: I spoke with WRAL engineer and my issue likely is SNR for the 1080p stuff.
They are very low power at the moment, but should be increasing it a bit in a few weeks.

Virtual Channel 105.10 WRAL*
Frequency 527.000 MHz
Program Number 44
Modulation Lock atsc3
Signal Strength 31%
Signal Quality 80%
Symbol Quality 100%
Streaming Rate 1.253 Mbps

Virtual Channel 150.10 WRAZ*
Frequency 527.000 MHz
Program Number 46
Modulation Lock atsc3
Signal Strength 31%
Signal Quality 79%
Symbol Quality 100%
Streaming Rate 1.169 Mbps

I wonder if they are up converting to 4k. Is anyone doing that yet? I think they have the gear to.
FYI, it doesn't appear to be a signal strength issue:

Virtual Channel 105.10 WRAL*
Frequency 527.000 MHz
Program Number 44
Modulation Lock atsc3
Signal Strength 86%
Signal Quality 100%
Symbol Quality 100%
Streaming Rate 1.569 Mbps

Virtual Channel 150.10 WRAZ*
Frequency 527.000 MHz
Program Number 46
Modulation Lock atsc3
Signal Strength 86%
Signal Quality 100%
Symbol Quality 100%
Streaming Rate 1.527 Mbps

Virtual Channel 134.10 WARZ*
Frequency 527.000 MHz
Program Number 48
Modulation Lock atsc3
Signal Strength 86%
Signal Quality 100%
Symbol Quality 100%
Streaming Rate 0.684 Mbps

Note the PLP designation and how it affects the channel listing:
Image
Image
Image
Image

I'm not sure if this really matters, but when the SD channels tune, the tuner auto-selects PLP0. But the combination PLP0 PLP1 is the only time the .11 channels go from "(no data)" to just double asterisk.
Last edited by csdesigns on Mon Jan 04, 2021 2:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

DigitalBrad
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Re: ATSC 3.0: Raleigh/Durham

Post by DigitalBrad »

csdesigns wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 12:51 pm
DigitalBrad wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 12:17 pm I am looking to WRAL / WRAZ for sports. Try emailing the CBS engineer about the audio issue. He finally responded to me.
What is it specifically are you looking into? Is it just the bit rates? Unfortunately, none of the ATSC 3.0 channels in our area are broadcasting HEVC encodings at a comparable PQ-level to their ATSC 1.0 counterparts (except maybe WUVC at times – but that's only because of what the guys in Miami are doing by trying to cram so much into the ATSC 1.0 bandwidth). I know we're still pretty much just in the 'technical preview' phase with ATSC 3.0, and my work with other broadcasters in this arena in other markets has shown very similar results, but from my personal non-job-related and average-consumer perspective, PQ has been at best been an afterthought – and at worst, a joke.

Regarding the audio, my assumption is that this is a SiliconDust issue and how their app is decoding (I haven't had the time to really focus on audio decoding with other apps like Channels yet). If that is not believed to be the case, then it may indeed be worth following up on at some point in the near future.
To me, ABC 11 actually looks better (works great w/new FW). The others, not so much. The others I agree (CBS, CW, MY) look worse. However WRAL / WRAZ will focus on a good picture and innovation. They've already done events in 4K and know more than anyone else in the country about ATSC 3.0.

DigitalBrad
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Re: ATSC 3.0: Raleigh/Durham

Post by DigitalBrad »

csdesigns wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 1:47 pm
DigitalBrad wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 7:29 pm Nick,

Just updated to the new firmware and I can now see 150.11 (50.1) and 105.11 (5.1) in my tuner and on the apps, but they still do not tune or work. However, the SD HVEC versions 150.10 (50.1) and 105.10 (5.1) both are viewable like before. I have a very weak signal and am not sure if that it my issue. You should still have access to my logs and my open support ticket.

EDIT: I spoke with WRAL engineer and my issue likely is SNR for the 1080p stuff.
They are very low power at the moment, but should be increasing it a bit in a few weeks.

Virtual Channel 105.10 WRAL*
Frequency 527.000 MHz
Program Number 44
Modulation Lock atsc3
Signal Strength 31%
Signal Quality 80%
Symbol Quality 100%
Streaming Rate 1.253 Mbps

Virtual Channel 150.10 WRAZ*
Frequency 527.000 MHz
Program Number 46
Modulation Lock atsc3
Signal Strength 31%
Signal Quality 79%
Symbol Quality 100%
Streaming Rate 1.169 Mbps

I wonder if they are up converting to 4k. Is anyone doing that yet? I think they have the gear to.
FYI, it doesn't appear to be a signal strength issue:

Virtual Channel 105.10 WRAL*
Frequency 527.000 MHz
Program Number 44
Modulation Lock atsc3
Signal Strength 86%
Signal Quality 100%
Symbol Quality 100%
Streaming Rate 1.569 Mbps

Virtual Channel 150.10 WRAZ*
Frequency 527.000 MHz
Program Number 46
Modulation Lock atsc3
Signal Strength 86%
Signal Quality 100%
Symbol Quality 100%
Streaming Rate 1.527 Mbps

Virtual Channel 134.10 WARZ*
Frequency 527.000 MHz
Program Number 48
Modulation Lock atsc3
Signal Strength 86%
Signal Quality 100%
Symbol Quality 100%
Streaming Rate 0.684 Mbps
Oh, are you not able to tune in the 150.11 (50.1) and 105.11 (5.1) channels either? Your levels / quality are fantastic.

csdesigns
Posts: 46
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Re: ATSC 3.0: Raleigh/Durham

Post by csdesigns »

DigitalBrad wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 1:59 pm To me, ABC 11 actually looks better (works great w/new FW). The others, not so much. The others I agree (CBS, CW, MY) look worse. However WRAL / WRAZ will focus on a good picture and innovation. They've already done events in 4K and know more than anyone else in the country about ATSC 3.0.
Well, admittedly, I haven't really paid much attention to the ATSC 3.0 channels in the past few weeks since setting up the tuners, partly due to the holidays, and also not wanting to waste much effort prior to the new firmware that was released today. But my initial impression wasn't positive... However, I'll give it another go soon to see if things have really improved.

And yeah, I'm well aware of WRAL's commitment. They were one of my former company's venture backers (CBC at least was) in the encoding space, so any negative comments I might have aren't tied to the company or broadcaster or anything like that. I am purely speaking about where this technology currently sits. I am quite positive that things will vastly improve over time.

csdesigns
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Re: ATSC 3.0: Raleigh/Durham

Post by csdesigns »

DigitalBrad wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 2:01 pm Oh, are you not able to tune in the 150.11 (50.1) and 105.11 (5.1) channels either? Your levels / quality are fantastic.
Nope. And yeah, antennas are just like real-estate: it's all about location, location, location. I'm in Five Points, with a good antenna, so I get pretty good reception on most everything.

DigitalBrad
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Re: ATSC 3.0: Raleigh/Durham

Post by DigitalBrad »

csdesigns wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 2:09 pm
DigitalBrad wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 1:59 pm To me, ABC 11 actually looks better (works great w/new FW). The others, not so much. The others I agree (CBS, CW, MY) look worse. However WRAL / WRAZ will focus on a good picture and innovation. They've already done events in 4K and know more than anyone else in the country about ATSC 3.0.
Well, admittedly, I haven't really paid much attention to the ATSC 3.0 channels in the past few weeks since setting up the tuners, partly due to the holidays, and also not wanting to waste much effort prior to the new firmware that was released today. But my initial impression wasn't positive... However, I'll give it another go soon to see if things have really improved.

And yeah, I'm well aware of WRAL's commitment. They were one of my former company's venture backers (CBC at least was) in the encoding space, so any negative comments I might have aren't tied to the company or broadcaster or anything like that. I am purely speaking about where this technology currently sits. I am quite positive that things will vastly improve over time.
Yeah, I'm really disappointed with it honestly. ATSC 3 looks half-baked at best. So, can you tune the 5.11 or 50.11in GUI or on the HD Homerun app? I am not able to tune it in anything. BTW, I don't see PLP area at all on my GUI. I'm running Windows 10 on an emulator and have to use a bridge mode. Hope @nickk sees this if it's still an issue.

csdesigns
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Re: ATSC 3.0: Raleigh/Durham

Post by csdesigns »

DigitalBrad wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 2:17 pm Yeah, I'm really disappointed with it honestly. ATSC 3 looks half-baked at best. So, can you tune the 5.11 or 50.11in GUI or on the HD Homerun app? I am not able to tune it in anything. BTW, I don't see PLP area at all on my GUI. I'm running Windows 10 on an emulator and have to use a bridge mode. Hope @nickk sees this if it's still an issue.
Do you mean the HDHomeRun Config GUI app (that I took screenshots of)? I haven't yet got around to trying to use that app for decode; I honestly thought it was mostly just for diagnosing the tuner, not viewing. I don't think I can use that app to help view a channel directly. When I try to have it route to VLC, VLC basically just hangs most of the time (this very well could be an issue with my PC setup however). It occasionally works, but is often choppy or at least stutters a lot. When HDHomeRun Config GUI app does work in sending a channel like 150.10 to VLC for decoding, the PLPs are automatically set and can't be overridden. So if I manually set the PLPs to PLP0+PLP1, and then try to use the 'View' button in the app, once VLC tries to tune, the PLPs are reset. I imagine this might be an error in the original channel scan done by the tuner.

If you're asking about the actual official HDHomeRun viewing apps, yeah, I can't view the .11 channels there either.

aldamon
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Re: ATSC 3.0: Raleigh/Durham

Post by aldamon »

csdesigns wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 11:55 am In my instance, the sound on WNCN (via Windows 10 or Xbox One apps) is still being decoded as mono (with the latest fw from today), or at least there is a very large difference in the leveling of the left and right channels (same for all channels on 473MHz). So it's there, but it's awful to listen to. Also, given the really low current picture quality of these HEVC channels, not sure why you'd want to watch something like football on an ATSC 3.0 broadcast atm – unless you didn't have access to another ATSC 1.0-capable tuner prior to today's fw update, which should now alleviate that issue.

Also, speaking of app versions: T̶h̶e̶ ̶l̶a̶t̶e̶s̶t̶ ̶b̶e̶t̶a̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶A̶n̶d̶r̶o̶i̶d̶ ̶T̶V̶ ̶a̶p̶p̶ ̶I̶ ̶j̶u̶s̶t̶ ̶i̶n̶s̶t̶a̶l̶l̶e̶d̶ ̶o̶n̶ ̶m̶y̶ ̶2̶0̶1̶5̶ ̶S̶h̶i̶e̶l̶d̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶n̶o̶ ̶l̶o̶n̶g̶e̶r̶ ̶s̶h̶o̶w̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶H̶E̶V̶C̶ ̶c̶h̶a̶n̶n̶e̶l̶s̶ ̶a̶t̶ ̶a̶l̶l̶.̶ ̶T̶h̶e̶ ̶a̶p̶p̶ ̶v̶e̶r̶s̶i̶o̶n̶ ̶i̶n̶s̶t̶a̶l̶l̶e̶d̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶2̶0̶2̶1̶0̶1̶0̶4̶ ̶/̶ ̶2̶0̶2̶0̶1̶2̶3̶0̶e̶ ̶U̶I̶. After a reinstall of the 20210104, HEVC channels are showing again, however, still no audio being decoded.
Yeah, I was previously fooled by 1.0 channels being tuned instead of 3.0, which seemed to be a fluke prior to 1.0 officially coming back to the channel list. I'm not having much luck with the Raleigh 3.0 stations on latest firmware on latest Windows 10 app. The problems are different per channel like you said so I'm not even sure what the best way to help is. Is this the Wild West with every station doing its own thing? I'm just happy to have all 1.0 back so I can try help out with this AND still watch TV. I'm just hoping the Windows 10 app gets up to speed and then hopefully Fire Stick 4Ks later.

csdesigns
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Re: ATSC 3.0: Raleigh/Durham

Post by csdesigns »

csdesigns wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 2:14 pm
DigitalBrad wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 2:01 pm Oh, are you not able to tune in the 150.11 (50.1) and 105.11 (5.1) channels either? Your levels / quality are fantastic.
Nope.
I installed the 20210104 fw tonight, and while that does enable audio on my Shield now, I am still unable to tune into the .11 channels. I have even attempted to tune via command line and designating the PLPs, but the tuner is unable to grab a lock on the signal.

DigitalBrad
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Re: ATSC 3.0: Raleigh/Durham

Post by DigitalBrad »

csdesigns wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 11:05 pm
csdesigns wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 2:14 pm
DigitalBrad wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 2:01 pm Oh, are you not able to tune in the 150.11 (50.1) and 105.11 (5.1) channels either? Your levels / quality are fantastic.
Nope.
I installed the 20210104 fw tonight, and while that does enable audio on my Shield now, I am still unable to tune into the .11 channels. I have even attempted to tune via command line and designating the PLPs, but the tuner is unable to grab a lock on the signal.
Thanks for the update. The .11's still don't work for me either.

Dynasty87
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Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2021 9:53 am

Re: ATSC 3.0: Raleigh/Durham

Post by Dynasty87 »

csdesigns wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 2:14 pm
DigitalBrad wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 2:01 pm Oh, are you not able to tune in the 150.11 (50.1) and 105.11 (5.1) channels either? Your levels / quality are fantastic.
Nope. And yeah, antennas are just like real-estate: it's all about location, location, location. I'm in Five Points, with a good antenna, so I get pretty good reception on most everything.
Interesting to hear Five Points, I am like a mile down the road on the 211 outside of Raeford and cannot for whatever reason see WRAL's ATSC 3.0 on RF 23 but can see everything on RF14.

RF14
Image

and RF23

Image

About the only thing I haven't done is moved my antenna (mounted inside my attic). I get fairly reliable and stable coverage of WRAL on RF17 on the ATSC 1.0 tuner.

Edit:
Ok maybe not a mile, give or take about 5 haha but you have given me hope that I just haven't figured out what I missing, and chances are thats my antenna placement.
Last edited by Dynasty87 on Tue Jan 05, 2021 12:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

DigitalBrad
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Re: ATSC 3.0: Raleigh/Durham

Post by DigitalBrad »

Dynasty87 wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 10:02 am
csdesigns wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 2:14 pm
DigitalBrad wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 2:01 pm Oh, are you not able to tune in the 150.11 (50.1) and 105.11 (5.1) channels either? Your levels / quality are fantastic.
Nope. And yeah, antennas are just like real-estate: it's all about location, location, location. I'm in Five Points, with a good antenna, so I get pretty good reception on most everything.
Interesting to hear Five Points, I am like a mile down the road on the 211 outside of Raeford and cannot for whatever reason see WRAL's ATSC 3.0 on RF 23 but can see everything on RF14.

RF23
Image

and RF14

Image

About the only thing I haven't done is moved my antenna (mounted inside my attic). I get fairly reliable and stable coverage of WRAL on RF17 on the ATSC 1.0 tuner.

Edit:
Ok maybe not a mile, give or take about 5 haha but you have given me hope that I just haven't figured out what I missing, and chances are thats my antenna placement.

If you have in iOS device, there is a fantastic signal meter app called GH Signal that works with the HD Homerun to aim your antenna.

Dynasty87
Posts: 2
Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2021 9:53 am

Re: ATSC 3.0: Raleigh/Durham

Post by Dynasty87 »

DigitalBrad wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 10:41 am
If you have in iOS device, there is a fantastic signal meter app called GH Signal that works with the HD Homerun to aim your antenna.
Thanks for that info, when the wife gets home with her iPhone I will took a look at that.

nickk
Silicondust
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Re: ATSC 3.0: Raleigh/Durham

Post by nickk »

105.11 - we have confirmed the issue and understand the problem. Working on correct handling now.

Nick

rljnc
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Re: ATSC 3.0: Raleigh/Durham

Post by rljnc »

Even after the 20210104 update I still do not have audio on my 2015 model shield. I do have audio on my 2019 shield.

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