ATSC 3.0: Raleigh/Durham - 2020

ATSC 3.0 Forum
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csdesigns
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Re: ATSC 3.0: Raleigh/Durham

Post by csdesigns »

CBme wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 6:12 pm Are you saying they are switching from 720p to 1080p for their national feeds?
Yes. This is something that has long been in the works at FOX — it’s a different story as to when the locals will switch to 1080p (possibly never on ATSC 1.0). Key issue for FOX with doing this previously was due to HEVC not hitting an internal required PQ-level, given any switch in codec would also mean they’d lower the delivered bit rates; but the Disney thing, plus some change in engineering leadership, is finally pushing them forward (not to mention just ATSC 3.0 in general). I don’t know for sure when this is supposed to happen, but perhaps could find out soon enough

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Re: ATSC 3.0: Raleigh/Durham

Post by CBme »

csdesigns wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 6:35 pm
CBme wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 6:12 pm Are you saying they are switching from 720p to 1080p for their national feeds?
Yes. This is something that has long been in the works at FOX — it’s a different story as to when the locals will switch to 1080p (possibly never on ATSC 1.0). Key issue for FOX with doing this previously was due to HEVC not hitting an internal required PQ-level, given any switch in codec would also mean they’d lower the delivered bit rates; but the Disney thing, plus some change in engineering leadership, is finally pushing them forward (not to mention just ATSC 3.0 in general). I don’t know for sure when this is supposed to happen, but perhaps could find out soon enough
Interesting. No idea about our locals, though I assume they, and the rest of the 720p workflow folks, would require a new hardware. And if you are doing new hardware, I would think you'd might as well plan on switching to a 4k workflow so you don't have to do two changes.
Somewhat amusing how difficult this all seems to be for networks. Should probably just higher a few of the many thousands of youtuber's that have bene doing HQ 4k productions for a long time. Many are doing 8k workflows already.

csdesigns
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Re: ATSC 3.0: Raleigh/Durham

Post by csdesigns »

CBme wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 8:35 pm Interesting. No idea about our locals, though I assume they, and the rest of the 720p workflow folks, would require a new hardware. And if you are doing new hardware, I would think you'd might as well plan on switching to a 4k workflow so you don't have to do two changes.
Somewhat amusing how difficult this all seems to be for networks. Should probably just higher a few of the many thousands of youtuber's that have bene doing HQ 4k productions for a long time. Many are doing 8k workflows already.
The vast majority of stations need to purchase new hardware regardless, primarily due to HEVC encoding being the new standard with ATSC 3.0. Also, even for ATSC 1.0, most stations are already taking the source signal and transcoding/statmuxing it with other channels to deliver OTA. So none of this will be too new from a workflow standpoint, it'll just be new hw/sw components in the mix.

I wouldn't hold my breath for 4K however. While it is certainly possible, other than for special events (like the Olympics), the best we can probably hope for will be ubiquitous FHD. Primary reason for this is that the key total transmission bit rate per frequency is only 25Mbps atm. If you have to put 5 separate networks into that 25Mbps mux (which is where the industry has settled upon at this stage), that barely leaves enough room for decent 1080p. Until more transmitters become available, this is what we're stuck with for the time being. Remember, this isn't VOD or YouTube, which can take advantage of things like 2-3-pass encoding or scene-adaptive encoding techniques, not to mention lesser frame rates like true 24p, so 5Mbps HEVC at 60Hz isn't as simple to get looking good as it might seem if all you're really used to experiencing is transcodes of Blu-ray rips. It's not as though the engineers at these stations aren't as smart as the YouTube crowd, it's just that they have to deal with way more limitations regarding the end user.

4K will come at some point, but it's gonna be a few years out I'm afraid, at least on a large scale availability-wise. Live 4K is much more likely to be readily available over OTT than it will be over broadcast in the near future. But even then, will that be 'true' 4K? Look at FOX Sports. They claim to be delivering 4K for some events with their apps. Yet, the actual production is only edited and composited at 1080p, and then upscaled to 4K for encoding. I'd personally prefer they ditch the pseudo-4K and just deliver FHD at the same bit rate as they utilize for 4K. There is probably less than 1% of their viewers who can actually benefit from their current approach vs high bit rate 1080p. But marketing wins sometimes...

csdesigns
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Re: ATSC 3.0: Raleigh/Durham

Post by csdesigns »

kyl416 wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 2:17 pm
rljnc wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 2:12 pm Even after the 20210104 update I still do not have audio on my 2015 model shield. I do have audio on my 2019 shield.
Nvidia only paid for a Dolby license for their 2019 models, so you're not going to get audio on the 2015 or 2017 models without it being connected to a soundbar or AV Receiver that supports AC-4 audio.
So... Not sure what to make of this. I have three 2015 Shield boxes (model P2571). On one of the boxes, I do not hear audio on ATSC 3.0 channels. However, on my second Shield (haven't tested on the third as it is located with my outdoor theater and it's been too cold), ATSC 3.0 audio is coming through quite well with all of the latest updates. The receiver connected to this Shield is at least three years old, and I know that it doesn't have a hw AC-4 decoder (not that the Shield 2015 can send AC-4 bit stream out in any case).

I believe that AC-4, as implemented in the official HDHomerun apps, should not really be dependent on the hw installed. First, the way the Dolby licenses AC-4, if you pay a license to decode something like Dolby Digital Plus, then there is no additional cost to support AC-4 (I could be wrong about this but have seen this pointed out previously). Also, SiliconDust is using sw to decode the AC-4, so on most platforms, AC-4 doesn't rely on the underlying hw installed.

2015 Shield specs/setup:
Android Version: 9
Shield sw Version: 8.2.1(32.8.435.31)
Audio Output: Auto (HDMI)
Available Audio Formats: Auto
HDHomeRun:
Model: HDHR5-4K-DEV
Firmware: 20210105beta2
Android TV App Version 20210104
UI Version 20201230e (beta)
Early Features Access enabled
Last edited by csdesigns on Tue Jan 05, 2021 11:36 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: ATSC 3.0: Raleigh/Durham

Post by CBme »

csdesigns wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 10:13 pm
CBme wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 8:35 pm Interesting. No idea about our locals, though I assume they, and the rest of the 720p workflow folks, would require a new hardware. And if you are doing new hardware, I would think you'd might as well plan on switching to a 4k workflow so you don't have to do two changes.
Somewhat amusing how difficult this all seems to be for networks. Should probably just higher a few of the many thousands of youtuber's that have bene doing HQ 4k productions for a long time. Many are doing 8k workflows already.
I wouldn't hold my breath for 4K however. While it is certainly possible, other than for special events (like the Olympics), the best we can probably hope for will be ubiquitous FHD. Primary reason for this is that the key total transmission bit rate per frequency is only 25Mbps atm. If you have to put 5 separate networks into that 25Mbps mux (which is where the industry has settled upon at this stage), that barely leaves enough room for decent 1080p. Until more transmitters become available, this is what we're stuck with for the time being. Remember, this isn't VOD or YouTube, which can take advantage of things like 2-3-pass encoding or scene-adaptive encoding techniques, not to mention lesser frame rates like true 24p, so 5Mbps HEVC at 60Hz isn't as simple to get looking good as it might seem if all you're really used to experiencing is transcodes of Blu-ray rips. It's not as though the engineers at these stations aren't as smart as the YouTube crowd, it's just that they have to deal with way more limitations regarding the end user.

4K will come at some point, but it's gonna be a few years out I'm afraid, at least on a large scale availability-wise. Live 4K is much more likely to be readily available over OTT than it will be over broadcast in the near future. But even then, will that be 'true' 4K? Look at FOX Sports. They claim to be delivering 4K for some events with their apps. Yet, the actual production is only edited and composited at 1080p, and then upscaled to 4K for encoding. I'd personally prefer they ditch the pseudo-4K and just deliver FHD at the same bit rate as they utilize for 4K. There is probably less than 1% of their viewers who can actually benefit from their current approach vs high bit rate 1080p. But marketing wins sometimes...
I'm certainly not holding my breath, primarily due to the realities of the bandwidth constraints you mentioned. The fact that they have to use bandwidth for 1.0 for 5 more years isn't helping. I fully agree that I they need to dump '4k' delivery where the workflow is 1080p or has other aspects that lose '4k'-level quality. Uprezzing can be done by the end customer's TV and save the bandwidth. But for the the majority of a networks shows, they are pre-recorded so they don't have the same challenges as sports and the news. They all look notably better via streaming services than they do via broadcasts at the moment. I'd love to see 1080p 3.0 broadcast at least get to that point soon if possible. If we could get sports that aren't mpeg 2 macroblock mess whenever there is motion, that would be amazing too. Then we can get to HLG and other fun..

csdesigns
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Re: ATSC 3.0: Raleigh/Durham

Post by csdesigns »

CBme wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 10:45 pm But for the the majority of a networks shows, they are pre-recorded so they don't have the same challenges as sports and the news. They all look notably better via streaming services than they do via broadcasts at the moment. I'd love to see 1080p 3.0 broadcast at least get to that point soon if possible. If we could get sports that aren't mpeg 2 macroblock mess whenever there is motion, that would be amazing too. Then we can get to HLG and other fun..
It's a bit of picking your poison as a broadcaster. The vast majority of customers get their services from some form of major/local service provider. These providers more often than not are transcoding and reducing bit rate, so yes, the quality of most primetime episodic TV looks better on streaming services such as Hulu or Netflix. But OTA (ATSC 1.0) can still be relatively unfettered compared to streaming, with better reliability for some folks. There are some primetime programs that absolutely look better on a streaming service than they do over ATSC 1.0 (namely those programs from the 1080i channels), but there are others where I don't believe that to be the case. On the streaming side, it really depends on if the service is using enough bits for the show – some services (*cough* Netflix *cough*) have begun to pull back on the rates they encode the shows, which is rather noticeable IMHO. On the flip side, if one HD local station is being statmuxed with another HD local station, then that can quickly go down hill – and conversely looks great if there is only one HD channel in a mux with two low-quality SD channels.

One thing I don't complain about is sports with OTA. ESPN does a really good job with their streaming video quality, and I always prefer to watch with the ESPN/ABC app over the OTA experience. The video quality in the FOX app is comparable to OTA (sometimes less, sometime better, depending on the event), but the audio within the app is majorly lacking in presence (due to AAC only). Other sports app generally suck however. I'll take a few macroblocks here or there on OTA versus NBC/Amazon/CBS/NFL/TNT/TBS's 30Hz output any day!
Last edited by csdesigns on Tue Jan 05, 2021 11:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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