8 Nov 2020

ATSC 3.0 Forum
nickk
Silicondust
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Re: 8 Nov 2020

Post by nickk »

TVSuperFan wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 9:28 am I use the app on my TCL Roku TV so, I second the request for an upgrade to the app for Roku.
The Roku platform requires that we use the built in Roku player and this built in player doesn't support ATSC 3.0 content.

For ATSC 3.0 you need to use something other than a Roku.

Nick

unwiredben
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Re: 8 Nov 2020

Post by unwiredben »

On the new 2020 Ultra and the "Reno" series 4K Roku TVs (higher-end TVs since mid-2019), there's support for both HEVC and AC-4. However, the media player doesn't deal well with the underruns that come from OTA content, and it's going to be difficult for a Brightscript app to implement support for ATSC 3.0 apps which need a web browser engine.

(Note: I work for Roku as an embedded firmware developer in the Roku OS team)

NTC
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Re: 8 Nov 2020

Post by NTC »

unwiredben wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 10:59 am On the new 2020 Ultra and the "Reno" series 4K Roku TVs (higher-end TVs since mid-2019), there's support for both HEVC and AC-4. However, the media player doesn't deal well with the underruns that come from OTA content, and it's going to be difficult for a Brightscript app to implement support for ATSC 3.0 apps which need a web browser engine.

(Note: I work for Roku as an embedded firmware developer in the Roku OS team)
I hate to continue the hijacking of a thread that is really about the next HDHomerun firmware update, but I do think that there is a growing use of Roku devices and improving the HDHomeRun "channel" is important.

The new Roku Ultra can play HEVC/AC4 medias. I have played a few mp4 files with those codecs using the Roku Media Player, which I understand is embedded in the Roku OS. The HDHR app on the Roku plays the live ATSC 3.0 HEVC video just fine, if it is sent at 59.94 Hz. It will not play the AC4 audio. The HDHR app on the Roku is not able to record, but I can access my recorded files using the Roku Media Player (DLNA protocol), and just like the HDHR app, it plays the captured MPEG-TS files except still no audio.

Since the HDHR app version is from this past Spring, I'm deducing that the HDHomeRun app is relying on the OS to decode the current HEVC format. From a layperson perspective, if the AC4 audio on a MPEG-TS stream can be fix on the Roku OS, it should carry over to HDHomeRun app. Feel free to move this to an appropriate thread in this forum, or as they say in Roku-land, community.

Boxer
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Re: 8 Nov 2020

Post by Boxer »

I can tell you that many of the Apps I use no longer support Roku. I hear the same thing from all of them. Too difficult to work with the limitation imposed by Roku. I replaced two of my Roku units with Shields about a year ago. Best decision ever. I know Roku is "popular" but that doesn't translate to "good".

Crash*N*Burn
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Re: 8 Nov 2020

Post by Crash*N*Burn »

nickk wrote: Sun Nov 08, 2020 12:52 pm ATSC 1.0 vs 3.0 channels
We are working on a improvements so the channel list on the device and in our apps show both the ATSC 1.0 and 3.0 channels with the same virtual channel number.

Missing and no-data ATSC 3.0 channels
We expect to release a firmware update this week to address this issue.

Apps
We have app releases planned for Apple TV, Android, and FireTV.

Nick
Would it be possible to list the ATSC3.0 as 5XXX so like in RDU 11.1 HVEC(ATSC3.0) would list as 5111???

so:
11.1 ATSC 1.0 11.1
11.1 ATSC 3.0 5111
17.1 ATSC 1.0 17.1
17.1 ATSC 30. 5171
22.1 ATSC 1.0 22.1
22.1 ATSC 3.0 5221
28.1 ATSC 1.0 28.1
28.1 ATSC 3.0 5281
40.1 ATSC 1.0 40.1
40.1 ATSC 3.0 5401

I realize that it may not work this way, but it would be nice if you could separate the ATSC 1.0 from the ATSC 3.0 signals.

raggededge71
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Re: 8 Nov 2020

Post by raggededge71 »

nickk wrote: Sun Nov 08, 2020 12:52 pm ATSC 1.0 vs 3.0 channels
We are working on a improvements so the channel list on the device and in our apps show both the ATSC 1.0 and 3.0 channels with the same virtual channel number.

Missing and no-data ATSC 3.0 channels
We expect to release a firmware update this week to address this issue.

Apps
We have app releases planned for Apple TV, Android, and FireTV.

Nick
Any updates on when we can expect a new firmware release and app releases?

Thanks!

CaptainKen
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Re: 8 Nov 2020

Post by CaptainKen »

My neighbor and I are both experiencing this same no audio issue with atsc 3.0 streaming on Tuner 0 and 1. Oddly not the same channels however. All testing done on Windows PC hardwired to router and connected via browser to Plex localhost.

Also getting way too many "live TV playback could not be started" errors where the tuner can't connect even though we've got great omni-directional antennas located within 16 miles of the towers on flat land. Sometimes the channels with errors play fine and other times not.

He's not very happy with me since I talked him into a Plex Pass and HDHomeRun based on my daughters great experience with prior HDHomeRun model with Plex. I'm embarrassed. Sad we were so full of excitement and now left with pure disappointment. I've waited 2 years for the v3.0 to be released before buying. I also waited as to not be the first to buy.

I can't believe these commonly paired products were never properly and fully tested! This is unacceptable. If these two manufactures haven't resolved the issue very soon, we'll be sending both units back.
Last edited by CaptainKen on Tue Nov 24, 2020 8:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

kyl416
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Re: 8 Nov 2020

Post by kyl416 »

Plex relies on the open source FFmpeg project for its codecs, so until FFmpeg's developers add support for AC-4 there's nothing Plex's developers can really do about it. FFmpeg just sees the AC-4 audio stream as an undecodable stream of binary data. The same issue affects Kodi, VLC and Emby.

AC-4 is also covered by a patent which requires the manufacturer to obtain a license from Dolby for each device model they want to include it on. So certain devices where manufacturers didn't get a license like the 2015 and 2017 models of NVidia Shield, older Roku's and older Apple devices don't have AC-4 audio either. For those devices until the open source community catches up with AC-4, you won't have audio unless you are using passthru mode with a soundbar or receiver that can decode AC-4.


This isn't an issue with ATSC 1.0 because it uses formats that came out in the 90s like MPEG2 and AC3 that are now widely supported by both open source and commercially available codecs and nearly all of the related patents have since expired. But if you were an early adopter and purchased one of the first PC ATSC tuners in the early 00s you went through the same thing. Like unless you had a GPU capable of hardware MPEG2 decoding, you needed what was at the time considered a high end CPU to view HD channels, and until the open source community caught up, you couldn't use the tuner outside of the software that came with it unless you purchased MPEG2 and AC3 DirectShow codecs like NVidia's PureVideo or WinDVD.

darcilicious
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Re: 8 Nov 2020

Post by darcilicious »

CaptainKen wrote: Tue Nov 24, 2020 6:53 pm My neighbor and I are both experiencing this same no audio issue with atsc 3.0 streaming on Tuner 0 and 1. Oddly not the same channels however. All testing done on Windows PC hardwired to router and connected via browser to Plex localhost.
It's not clear from this statement so I'll just go ahead and make this recommendation: the last "place" you want to watch Live TV with Plex is through a browser. So hopefully you've downloaded their Plex app for Windows or are using Plex on a streaming box of some kind.

Secondly, as mentioned, you're not going to get any audio with Plex on ATSC 3.0 channels until they're able to deal with AC4 audio :( In the meantime, you can use the HDHomeRun app (from the Windows Apps store) for a better playback experience on Windows.
He's not very happy with me since I talked him into a Plex Pass and HDHomeRun based on my daughters great experience with prior HDHomeRun model with Plex. I'm embarrassed. Sad we were so full of excitement and now left with pure disappointment. I've waited 2 years for the v3.0 to be released before buying. I also waited as to not be the first to buy.
You don't mention which market you're in (city) -- and while you may not have been the first to buy you're certainly in the first 1% to be accessing 3.0 channels. So yeah in your case, you may have jumped the gun a bit...
I can't believe these commonly paired products were never properly and fully tested! This is unacceptable. If these two manufactures haven't resolved the issue very soon, we'll be sending both units back.
Sending the products back is an entirely acceptable solution and certainly an option. The fact is, ATSC 3.0 if bleeding edge, the broadcasters themselves are still figuring things out. In your shoes, I would go ahead and get the older CONNECT Quatro and enjoy ATSC 1.0 for the next five years and transition to a CONNECT 4K in a few years as you like.

talkenrain
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Re: 8 Nov 2020

Post by talkenrain »

CaptainKen wrote: Tue Nov 24, 2020 6:53 pm My neighbor and I are both experiencing this same no audio issue with atsc 3.0 streaming on Tuner 0 and 1. Oddly not the same channels however. All testing done on Windows PC hardwired to router and connected via browser to Plex localhost.

Also getting way too many "live TV playback could not be started" errors where the tuner can't connect even though we've got great omni-directional antennas located within 16 miles of the towers on flat land. Sometimes the channels with errors play fine and other times not.

He's not very happy with me since I talked him into a Plex Pass and HDHomeRun based on my daughters great experience with prior HDHomeRun model with Plex. I'm embarrassed. Sad we were so full of excitement and now left with pure disappointment. I've waited 2 years for the v3.0 to be released before buying. I also waited as to not be the first to buy.

I can't believe these commonly paired products were never properly and fully tested! This is unacceptable. If these two manufactures haven't resolved the issue very soon, we'll be sending both units back.
If your serious, I'd be happy to purchase your (and your neighbors) ATSC 3.0 used tuner(s). Send me a DM.

CaptainKen
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Re: 8 Nov 2020

Post by CaptainKen »

Thanks @Kyl416 for the short easy to follow explanation.

There should have been a warning on the purchase page.

The HDHR and Plex apps should not have been released without an option to have a global default to ATSC 1.0 on all 4 tuners.

It appears Plex and HDHomeRun are all relying on FFMPEG. I have the same issue with same channels on HDHomeRun Roku app, Plex on Roku Ultra 4670X 2019 Edition, and Plex Desktop app. So regarding Roku, as nickk pointed out not limited to only the older ones.

Plex Desktop unwatchable pixelation and sometimes playback errors on Tuner0&1. All connections wired.

Having option to select which tuner for each channel and each playback seems like unneeded extra clicks since no one is going to want to use the ATSC 3.0 tuners with no sound.

Will the workaround Plex plans to release, limit the tuners to only 2 rather then the 4 I paid for?

Since all I have is Roku's throughout the house, and Roku's won't initially receive the Plex update, I need to an ETA as part of decision process to send back.


@darcilicious I live in Gilbert, AZ.

Not everyone has a PC connected to their TV or in every room. This defeats the whole idea of Live TV anywhere.

Bleeding edge or not, there should have been a warning and clear explanation on purchase page.


@talkenrain I'll send back for full refund rather then take an unreasonable hit to my pocketbook.

kyl416
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Re: 8 Nov 2020

Post by kyl416 »

Roku's problem is that all "channels" have to use their built in player, so 3rd party developers can only support the formats natively included with their player. Right now older models don't even support native Dolby Digital decoding, it relies on your TV or sound system to do the decoding, while their new Ultra 2020 model which has AC-4 support, doesn't currently support it within a MPEG-TS container, which is what broadcast TV uses, and it also has problems with interlaced HEVC so 1080i channels don't display properly. Roku's internal player also has issues with ATSC 1.0, which is why channel changes take longer on it compared to other platforms like Android or iOS, and the player has problems handling imperfect OTA signals, like marginal reception conditions or dropouts caused by wind or storms.

Even when the open source community catches up and supports AC-4 and interlaced HEVC, it still won't help users with older Roku devices unless they change their developer policies to allow 3rd party "channels" to embed their own player and decoders, or Roku addresses these issues with their player on their end.

Alderem
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Re: 8 Nov 2020

Post by Alderem »

CaptainKen wrote: Mon Nov 30, 2020 10:59 am Bleeding edge or not, there should have been a warning and clear explanation on purchase page.
You're the second person to have suggested this. One is a point of data, but two begins to make a line...

I think there are two desired outcomes we can all agree on:
  • An option to make the Quatro4K tune into ATSC1 even when ATSC3 is present is needed
  • Until this option is added, some sort of caveat emptor on the product page would be useful
We already know SiliconDust is working on adding the ATSC1 override option. (It's in the first post in this very thread.)

Some quick thoughts on why this transition has seemed so... complicated:
  • In 2007 we had a "digital mandate" to sunset analog broadcasts. There was an impetus to ensure compatibility and a smooth transition. No such mandate exists this time, "the transition is voluntary" and "the FCC will not require ATSC 3.0 tuners to be included in new televisions" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATSC_3.0) :shock:
  • During the analog to digital switch, the "tuners" sold to allow analog TVs to view digital TV were also decoders. But devices like the Quatro 4K really are just a tuner - they output exactly what they pulled out of the air, so your existing devices must do the decoding, which means an ugly set of upgrades to make it all work. Device manufacturers would rather sell you new equipment than provide updates, and... see previous point about new devices not even being guaranteed to work :roll: None of this is SiliconDust's fault, but I can see on these forums they're feeling some of the grief about it.
In brief, the best solution I know of is the solution that SiliconDust is already working on, and we just have to be patient.

bgrubb1
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Re: 8 Nov 2020

Post by bgrubb1 »

Bringing this thread back around. Firmware update ??
...Barry

leonardobg
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Re: 8 Nov 2020

Post by leonardobg »

I agree with you Barry. I've been patiently waiting but this thread was started 3 weeks ago yesterday and we haven't heard any meaningful updates from SD in the meantime. Even if the firmware and new app releases are a month away it would be better to know that's the case.

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