ATSC 3.0: Nashville TN OTA

ATSC 3.0 Forum
kyl416
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Re: ATSC 3.0: Nashville TN OTA

Post by kyl416 »

xmguy wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 11:35 pmHowever the resolution seems to be in 21.5:9. It looked VERY strange.
That usually means the station is transmitting in 1080i HEVC. VLC uses FFmpeg's decoders for HEVC, and FFmpeg doesn't currently support interlaced HEVC so 1080i channels show up as 1920x540p in software powered by FFmpeg like VLC, Kodi, Emby and Plex.

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Re: ATSC 3.0: Nashville TN OTA

Post by xmguy »

kyl416 wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 2:13 pm
xmguy wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 11:35 pmHowever the resolution seems to be in 21.5:9. It looked VERY strange.
That usually means the station is transmitting in 1080i HEVC. VLC uses FFmpeg's decoders for HEVC, and FFmpeg doesn't currently support interlaced HEVC so 1080i channels show up as 1920x540p in software powered by FFmpeg like VLC, Kodi, Emby and Plex.
AH! I didn't know this. Thank you! :) I thought the broadcaster was using some strange cinema format. So not only do we have the no audio issues with AC-4, we have weird formatting of the video signal too. All of this SHOULD be OPEN SOURCE! I don't like that the software engineers are having to reverse engineer the AC-4 codec, and then I assume the H265/HEVC codec for video?

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Re: ATSC 3.0: Nashville TN OTA

Post by kyl416 »

The specs for AC-4 and interlaced HEVC are out in the open for developers to use, so it isn't a matter of reverse engineering a closed source library. It's just that most of FFmpeg's developers are doing it in their spare time, and until ATSC 3.0 came along there were very few uses of AC-4 or interlaced HEVC out in the wild, so it wasn't a high priority for them. Plus most of their developers are based overseas where their "NextGen" TV is the DVB-T2 standard, so they didn't even have real world samples to work with until the HDHomeRun 4K was released and some early adopters submitted them.

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Re: ATSC 3.0: Nashville TN OTA

Post by joblo »

xmguy wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 8:27 amWonder if they're working on the tower this morning?
Nashville area band scans do show signal drops indicating reduced power on Sinclair's three stations this morning:

https://m.rabbitears.info/index.php?req ... e=CT&unit=
https://m.rabbitears.info/index.php?req ... e=CT&unit=
https://m.rabbitears.info/index.php?req ... e=CT&unit=
https://m.rabbitears.info/index.php?req ... e=CT&unit=

Click on the call signs for WNAB, WUXP, and WZTV to see the signal graphs showing the time of the reduction.
Note that only the last can actually decode 3.0, so the others simply register a reduction in "noise" level.

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Re: ATSC 3.0: Nashville TN OTA

Post by xmguy »

Does anyone know if RF 30 WNAB will change their QAM16/PLP0 station from TBD to CW58? I really don't get why it's on the PLP1 when the whole idea of a more robust signal is to have the main channel on it, and sub channels, which TBD is one of them, on the PLP1 or less robust layer. I've tried to write WNAB/WUXP/WZTV but have gotten no reply. I might try via LinkedIn.

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Re: ATSC 3.0: Nashville TN OTA

Post by jasonl »

The idea is for them to test the robust signal to see if it's worth wasting bandwidth on long-term. The more robust signal takes up a significantly larger percentage of the available channel space to deliver a given bitrate than the less robust signals do. If they dedicate fewer bits to the more robust signal and only put an SD channel on there, it leave more bits for the HD channels on the other PLP.

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Re: ATSC 3.0: Nashville TN OTA

Post by xmguy »

I thought the plan was to use the more robust signal for their main feed at lower quality, then use the less robust PLP1 for a high quality one. Like streaming is today. I guess with it not even being a year since launch they’re testing the waters. I get that. I’m just surprised, seeing they are broadcasting MYTV30 on 21 on PLP0, which is in HD as well. 30, should be WNAB or WKRN, both I believe natively broadcast in 720p anyway. I know ABC does.

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Re: ATSC 3.0: Nashville TN OTA

Post by xmguy »

I'm sure most of us know this. But if some had doubt. Here is proof of why ATSC 3.0 is so much better for fringe users. I'm between 62-70 miles from the Nashville Transmitters. The 1.0 signals are VERY hit or miss. They come and go, time of day, weather, or slight movement of trees and I've lost all signal. ATSC 3.0 however I've only lost the QAM16/PLP0 signal on either Nashville signal (21, or 30), a few times. When I have it isn't for long.

Stations shown are;

WUXP RF 21 (3.0)

WSMV RF 10 (1.0)

WZTV RF 20 (1.0)

WKRN RF 27 (1.0)

Image

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Re: ATSC 3.0: Nashville TN OTA

Post by jasonl »

xmguy wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 6:37 pm I thought the plan was to use the more robust signal for their main feed at lower quality, then use the less robust PLP1 for a high quality one. Like streaming is today. I guess with it not even being a year since launch they’re testing the waters. I get that. I’m just surprised, seeing they are broadcasting MYTV30 on 21 on PLP0, which is in HD as well. 30, should be WNAB or WKRN, both I believe natively broadcast in 720p anyway. I know ABC does.
No one has finalized any long-term plans for ATSC 3 at this point. They're all just trying different things to see what works. The stated goal of the more robust signals is mobile reception in moving vehicles, not so much in fringe areas, even if does happen to benefit those of you in fringe areas. I expect this mobile stuff to be a complete bust just as it was the first time it was tried with ATSC 1, because anyone who watches stuff in the car is going to watch what they actually want to watch (DVD/Bluray/flash drive/streaming service download/LTE streaming), not just whatever trash happens to be on broadcast TV at the time.

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Re: ATSC 3.0: Nashville TN OTA

Post by xmguy »

jasonl wrote: Sun Mar 14, 2021 12:31 am
xmguy wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 6:37 pm I thought the plan was to use the more robust signal for their main feed at lower quality, then use the less robust PLP1 for a high quality one. Like streaming is today. I guess with it not even being a year since launch they’re testing the waters. I get that. I’m just surprised, seeing they are broadcasting MYTV30 on 21 on PLP0, which is in HD as well. 30, should be WNAB or WKRN, both I believe natively broadcast in 720p anyway. I know ABC does.
No one has finalized any long-term plans for ATSC 3 at this point. They're all just trying different things to see what works. The stated goal of the more robust signals is mobile reception in moving vehicles, not so much in fringe areas, even if does happen to benefit those of you in fringe areas. I expect this mobile stuff to be a complete bust just as it was the first time it was tried with ATSC 1, because anyone who watches stuff in the car is going to watch what they actually want to watch (DVD/Bluray/flash drive/streaming service download/LTE streaming), not just whatever trash happens to be on broadcast TV at the time.
Oh they've touted better signal in fringe areas. I know this is because the more robust signal can handle less data, thus less signal is needed to decode. But time will tell.

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Re: ATSC 3.0: Nashville TN OTA

Post by xmguy »

Does anyone know when WSMV will jump on board? It seems to be a team effort for 3.0, seeing that other channels have taken on others sub-channels. Like CW58 is a sub of WKRN 27, and it's sub-channels are part of WTVF RF5/36. I know Meredith is one of the cartel members along with Nexstar, and Scripps. So I was hoping they would be live too. I know Meredith is going though major financial troubles right now. But you'd figure they would have had this all already planned out, even pre Covid. WRAL in NC was live and testing in 4K in 2016! I can't seem to find info on WSMV/Meredith beyond a hint on another website for Nashville OTA for their 3.0 future.

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Re: ATSC 3.0: Nashville TN OTA

Post by kyl416 »

For whatever reason Meredith so far is only participating in 2 markets, Portland as a Host station and Phoenix as a guest station in exchange for hosting one of KFPH's ATSC 1.0 simulcasts.

Don't hold your breath on WSMV's RF 10 signal converting to ATSC 3.0 anytime soon, even after you get past the ATSC 1.0 simulcast requirements, one of the main things they want to do with ATSC 3.0 is mobile reception, something VHF stations can't do because of the reception requirements unless they can convince cell phone manufacturers to go back to the era of telescopic antennas. So if they do convert whenever the FCC decides ATSC 3.0 tuner penetration is high enough that a lighthouse period is no longer needed, you probably won't see them offer a robust QAM 16 PLP for mobile reception, they would just offer a 256 QAM PLP and take advantange of the extra bandwidth to offer picture quality upgrades for their channels.

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Re: ATSC 3.0: Nashville TN OTA

Post by jasonl »

I'm curious how involved Meredith even was in Portland. Their master control for the entire west coast, including Portland, was run out of KPHO (Phoenix) until earlier this year when they shut it down and consolidated the entire country into WGCL's facility in Atlanta. If they had just decided to make a deal with Sinclair (ABC/Univision affiliates) or Nexstar (CBS/CW affiliates) to actually do the hands-on stuff in Portland, those are the 2 biggest ATSC 3 pushers, and part of that arrangement could have involved one of them doing the ATSC 3 conversion on KPDX. Meredith is obviously broke as hell, as evidenced by putting a lot of talented people in Phoenix out of work, so I can't imagine them having spent any significant amount of money to broadcast a service no one can receive.

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Re: ATSC 3.0: Nashville TN OTA

Post by xmguy »

kyl416 wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 6:04 pm For whatever reason Meredith so far is only participating in 2 markets, Portland as a Host station and Phoenix as a guest station in exchange for hosting one of KFPH's ATSC 1.0 simulcasts.

Don't hold your breath on WSMV's RF 10 signal converting to ATSC 3.0 anytime soon, even after you get past the ATSC 1.0 simulcast requirements, one of the main things they want to do with ATSC 3.0 is mobile reception, something VHF stations can't do because of the reception requirements unless they can convince cell phone manufacturers to go back to the era of telescopic antennas. So if they do convert whenever the FCC decides ATSC 3.0 tuner penetration is high enough that a lighthouse period is no longer needed, you probably won't see them offer a robust QAM 16 PLP for mobile reception, they would just offer a 256 QAM PLP and take advantange of the extra bandwidth to offer picture quality upgrades for their channels.
My expectations are hopeful for atleast a SD (even) version of their main feed as QAM 16. I'm sure it will be 256 seeing that's what the others are doing as well. Well minus WUXP. I CAN get the 256 layer on 21, but it's spotty. I'm cutting trees down in the way almost everyday. Seems to help some.

Sadly money talks, plans walk. With the C-Band going to the cell Co's, who knows. I DO know this, WSMV WANTS mobile signal. They even launched mDTV spec on their channel. Not sure what tuners are out there for it. So I could most definitely see them doing a low res robust "mobile" signal. Right now, I'm aiming for 1.0 more than 3.0 anyway with my antenna setup. This isn't like the DTV transition. This is ALL voluntary. Now I see cell co's taking more from the UHF band, pushing stations BACK in the VHF band. But then again a friend of mind thinks they'll take it all for 5G at some point anyway. Who knows. I was just curious on Meredith for the Nashville DMA.

Not like it's going to change how radio waves work anyway. It will just make them stand up to multipath and movement better than 1.0. The graph for WSMV for me looks like a train wreck. Trees+wind=signals like this.

(WSMV GRAPH)

Image

xmguy
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Re: ATSC 3.0: Nashville TN OTA

Post by xmguy »

jasonl wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 7:03 pm I'm curious how involved Meredith even was in Portland. Their master control for the entire west coast, including Portland, was run out of KPHO (Phoenix) until earlier this year when they shut it down and consolidated the entire country into WGCL's facility in Atlanta. If they had just decided to make a deal with Sinclair (ABC/Univision affiliates) or Nexstar (CBS/CW affiliates) to actually do the hands-on stuff in Portland, those are the 2 biggest ATSC 3 pushers, and part of that arrangement could have involved one of them doing the ATSC 3 conversion on KPDX. Meredith is obviously broke as hell, as evidenced by putting a lot of talented people in Phoenix out of work, so I can't imagine them having spent any significant amount of money to broadcast a service no one can receive.
This is what I think too. I wonder how long before they sell to someone else. I'm betting on Sinclair, they're gobbling up any networks they can get their hands on.

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