ATSC 3.0 in Mobile/Pensacola

ATSC 3.0 Forum
NTC
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ATSC 3.0 in Mobile/Pensacola

Post by NTC »

ATSC 3.0 broadcasting started in the Mobile, Alabama, and Pensacola, Florida area.

Most of the main broadcasting stations are onboard. Currently broadcasting are WFGX on RF 27:5, WJTC on 35:5001, WEAR on 35:5002, and WPMI on 35:5003. WKRG and WFNA are on RF 27:1 and 27:2, respectively, but no data as of yet.

Problem I have encountered with the HDHomeRun on WJTC and WPMI (sister stations from Sinclair) is that they are broadcasting the video at 1920x1080i at a frame rate of 29.97, and when I stream those channels to my PC using VLC, the aspect ratio appears as 1920x540. The other stations with frame rates at 59.94, WEAR and WFGX play with correct aspect ratio.

WPMI monitors their OTA transmission using a BGD4100 4K integrated receiver/decoder, and they receive their transmission with the correct aspect ratio of 16:9. They even sent me a screen shot of their display. If I put the capture files on a USB and try to play them on the Roku, the video are all distorted, like if the vertical and Horizantal sync on an old CRT TV with rabbit ears needs tweaking (my dad would be cussing again about the signal).

So I ask, is a frame rate of 29.97 for an ATSC 3.0 transmission of an "interlaced" HEVC video at 1920x1080i within the ATSC standards? Anyone else in other markets seen similar issue? or solution?
Thanks.

timeshifter
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Re: ATSC 3.0 in Mobile/Pensacola

Post by timeshifter »

I'm seeing the same thing in the Salt Lake City market. I don't know of a solution, other than to change the aspect ratio in VLC. The stations also happen to be Sinclair.

NedS
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Re: ATSC 3.0 in Mobile/Pensacola

Post by NedS »

NTC wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 1:42 pm So I ask, is a frame rate of 29.97 for an ATSC 3.0 transmission of an "interlaced" HEVC video at 1920x1080i within the ATSC standards?
I think it is technically allowed, but it should probably be considered a crime against humanity to broadcast interlaced HEVC video.

Lost Dog
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Re: ATSC 3.0 in Mobile/Pensacola

Post by Lost Dog »

NedS wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 3:00 pm
NTC wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 1:42 pm So I ask, is a frame rate of 29.97 for an ATSC 3.0 transmission of an "interlaced" HEVC video at 1920x1080i within the ATSC standards?
I think it is technically allowed, but it should probably be considered a crime against humanity to broadcast interlaced HEVC video.
Try Portland, Oregon. I might understand the rioting now. Is this really 720i?

Image

NTC
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Re: ATSC 3.0 in Mobile/Pensacola

Post by NTC »

Lost Dog wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 3:42 pm
Try Portland, Oregon. I might understand the rioting now. Is this really 720i?
I think that's 720p. Meanwhile...

Found this while reviewing the ATSC standard on HEVC from 2018, Doc A341:
"The ATSC 3.0 HEVC encoded Interlaced HD video formats are specified in Table 6.2." When you see the table, allowable picture rate for 1920x1080i is 59.94 Hz, 60Hz, or 50HZ (except 50HZ not allowed in 60Hz regions).

Progressive can be at 29.97

jasonl
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Re: ATSC 3.0 in Mobile/Pensacola

Post by jasonl »

Lost Dog wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 3:42 pm Try Portland, Oregon. I might understand the rioting now. Is this really 720i?
720p30
NTC wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 4:16 pm Found this while reviewing the ATSC standard on HEVC from 2018, Doc A341:
"The ATSC 3.0 HEVC encoded Interlaced HD video formats are specified in Table 6.2." When you see the table, allowable picture rate for 1920x1080i is 59.94 Hz, 60Hz, or 50HZ (except 50HZ not allowed in 60Hz regions).

Progressive can be at 29.97
1080i TV in North America has a field rate of 59.94. That is sometimes represented as 29.97 frames per second, which mostly just serves to confuse the issue.

HEVC tossed out the fancy modes of handling interlaced video that were present in AVC and just encodes each field as its own picture, so it essentially is 1920x540p60 but with flags that tell the decoder to reassemble the fields into a frame. Some decoders (notably ffmpeg) don't implement support for those flags and just dump out the fields.

Lost Dog
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Re: ATSC 3.0 in Mobile/Pensacola

Post by Lost Dog »

I think that VLC is not reporting correctly. Here's the same file from mediainfo. What's strange is the video is showing 59.940 FPS and the audio shows 29.970 FPS:

Code: Select all

General
ID                                       : 1 (0x1)
Format                                   : MPEG-TS
File size                                : 18.9 MiB
Duration                                 : 28 s 212 ms
Overall bit rate mode                    : Variable
Overall bit rate                         : 5593 kb/s
FileExtension_Invalid                    : ts m2t m2s m4t m4s tmf ts tp trp ty

Video
ID                                       : 49 (0x31)
Menu ID                                  : 3 (0x3)
Format                                   : HEVC
Format/Info                              : High Efficiency Video Coding
Format profile                           : Main 10@L4.1@Main
Codec ID                                 : 36
Duration                                 : 28 s 228 ms
Width                                    : 1280 pixels
Height                                   : 720 pixels
Display aspect ratio                     : 16:9
Frame rate                               : 59.940 (60000/1001) FPS
Standard                                 : Component
Color space                              : YUV
Chroma subsampling                       : 4:2:0 (Type 0)
Bit depth                                : 10 bits
Color range                              : Limited
Color primaries                          : BT.709
Transfer characteristics                 : BT.709
Matrix coefficients                      : BT.709

Audio
ID                                       : 50 (0x32)
Menu ID                                  : 3 (0x3)
Format                                   : AC-4
Format/Info                              : Audio Coding 4
Commercial name                          : Dolby AC-4
Format version                           : Version 2
Codec ID                                 : 6
Duration                                 : 26 s 326 ms
Sampling rate                            : 48.0 kHz
Frame rate                               : 29.970 FPS (1601.6 SPF)
Compression mode                         : Lossy
Delay relative to video                  : 1 s 134 ms
Language                                 : English
Number of presentations                  : 1
Number of substreams                     : 1
Presentation #1                          : 5.1 Main
 Dialogue normalization                  : -24.00
 Loudness                                : Yes
  Integrated loudness (speech gated)     : -24.1 LKFS (Automated individual front channels)
  Integrated loudness (level gated)      : -23.4 LKFS
  Audio Loudness Standard                : ATSC A/85
  Realtime loudness corrected            : Yes
  Dialogue corrected                     : Yes (Automated individual front channels)
 Dynamic Range Control                   : Yes
 Downmix                                 : Yes
  LoRo center mix gain                   : -3.0 dB
  LoRo surround mix gain                 : -3.0 dB
  LtRt center mix gain                   : -3.0 dB
  LtRt surround mix gain                 : -3.0 dB
  LFE mix gain                           : -3 dB
  Preferred downmix                      : Pro Logic II
 Group #s                                : 1
Group #1                                 : Main
 Content classifier                      : Main
 Channel coded                           : Yes
 Number of substreams                    : 1
 Substream #s                            : 1
Substream #1                             : 5.1
 Channel mode                            : 5.1
 Channel layout                          : L R C LFE Ls Rs
 Preprocessing                           : Yes
  Phase 90 filter info                   : Not applied
  Surround attenuation known             : No
  LFE attenuation known                  : Yes
 Dialogue enhancement                    : Yes
  Enabled                                : Yes
  Max gain                               : 9 dB
  Channel configuration                  : L R

Menu
ID                                       : 48 (0x30)
Menu ID                                  : 3 (0x3)
Duration                                 : 28 s 212 ms
List                                     : 49 (0x31) (HEVC) / 50 (0x32) (AC-4, English) / 58 (0x3A) ()
Language                                 :  / English


NTC
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Re: ATSC 3.0 in Mobile/Pensacola

Post by NTC »

Lost Dog wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 10:56 am I think that VLC is not reporting correctly. Here's the same file from mediainfo. What's strange is the video is showing 59.940 FPS and the audio shows 29.970 FPS:
VLC is reporting only the video codec, since it can not decode audio, and VLC is showing "Frame rate: 59.940059" Pretty much same as MediaInfo.

NTC
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Re: ATSC 3.0 in Mobile/Pensacola

Post by NTC »

I updated to today's firmware with latest hdhomerun_config. WKRG and WFNA on RF 27 were not found in a re-scan because they were shown as no data. Manually tuning to 27 with hdhomerun_config I have to check off plp0 and plp1 to get stream. Even to capture the stream I have to have the plp concurrent, hdhomerun_config <device id> set /tuner0/channel atsc3:27:0+1

I know this was brought up in another thread, but I cannot find the end result. Is there a way to add these atsc3 channels? Perhaps editing the antenna.xml file?

nickk
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Re: ATSC 3.0 in Mobile/Pensacola

Post by nickk »

NTC wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 4:11 pm I updated to today's firmware with latest hdhomerun_config. WKRG and WFNA on RF 27 were not found in a re-scan because they were shown as no data. Manually tuning to 27 with hdhomerun_config I have to check off plp0 and plp1 to get stream. Even to capture the stream I have to have the plp concurrent, hdhomerun_config <device id> set /tuner0/channel atsc3:27:0+1

I know this was brought up in another thread, but I cannot find the end result. Is there a way to add these atsc3 channels? Perhaps editing the antenna.xml file?
Can you please enable "send diagnostic information" from the System Menu on the device webpage, then run the channel scan again.

Nick

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Re: ATSC 3.0 in Mobile/Pensacola

Post by NTC »

Diagnostic sent.

On Channnel 27 there are 3 programs, 27-1 is WKRG as virtual 5.1, 27-2 is WFNA virtual 55.1, and 27-5 is WFGX virtual 35.1

27-5 is the only program found on the scan as that is on PLP0 (QAM16). If I only check box on PLP1, then I get none of the programs. Checking off both PLP 0 and 1 gives me all 3.

Norm

nickk
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Re: ATSC 3.0 in Mobile/Pensacola

Post by nickk »

Diagnostics show the scan trying PLP0 and PLP1 but not the two together.

Can you please run HDHomeRun Config GUI:
c:\Program Files\Silicondust\HDHomeRun\hdhomerun_config_gui.exe

Select tuner 0 of the 4K unit and manually enter 27 for the channel. When it tunes please take a screenshot and post it here so I can see the full PLP informaiton.

Nick

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Re: ATSC 3.0 in Mobile/Pensacola

Post by NTC »

Didn't see a way to attach photo directly so here's the info requested.

When tuned to 27 and no check marks in PLP boxes (default)

PLP 0: sfi=0 mod=qam16 cod=9/15 layer=core tu=hti lls=1 lock=1
PLP 1: sfi=1 mod-qam256 cod=11/15 layer=core ti=hti lls=1

Tried again this morning and I only get a stream when both PLP are checked off and shows lock=1

nickk
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Re: ATSC 3.0 in Mobile/Pensacola

Post by nickk »

Can you please do 3 test captures (each link is different)...
http://108007F1.local:5004/tuner0/ch27p ... uration=30
http://108007F1.local:5004/tuner0/ch27p ... uration=30
http://108007F1.local:5004/tuner0/ch27p ... uration=30

Please upload to a service like Google Drive and PM me the share links.

I suspect that PLP 1 doesn't have LLS data despite the flag sent by the broadcaster indicating it has LLS data.

Nick

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Re: ATSC 3.0 in Mobile/Pensacola

Post by NTC »

PM sent.

I also saw someone seeing the same issue in the Las Vegas thread just 4 days ago on their RF 29, and also a CBS station owned by Nexstar.

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