AC-4 Audio?

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NedS
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Re: AC-4 Audio?

Post by NedS »

boardrashx wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 4:43 pm If we assume for a minute that a FOSS AC-4 decoder never arrives, we were all essentially swindled into buying a vastly overpriced ATSC1 networked tuner.
We have already added AC-4 support to our app for a number of platforms and devices, and continue to work on enabling more devices. Many additional devices without AC-4 support can also add an HDMI soundbar (or AVR) with AC-4 support.

Clients that can't support AC-4 will still be able to tune ATSC 1.0 channels, once we get that feature fully implemented (technically they can tune them now using a URL, but obviously we want to make it easier than that).

This will be no different than any other ATSC 3.0-based product. If you get an ATSC 3.0 USB tuner then you will be faced with the exact same codec requirements.

jbinkley60
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Re: AC-4 Audio?

Post by jbinkley60 »

boardrashx wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 4:57 pm
signcarver wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 4:51 pm From the KS
Not all playback clients will be able to support ATSC 3.0 content due to new codecs being utilized. You may need to purchase new client/playback hardware. For a computer you might need to purchase a new graphics card. Windows may require a paid Microsoft codec to be purchased from Microsoft Store.
Ha. You are right, I didn't grep this. Had SD really disclosed in detail what these ramifications were to 99.5% of the population, I certainly would not have supported such a product.

So I guess I will be putting mine up for sale. I'm not going to wish and pray that this thing actually works with common AV equipment someday.
I don't think you'll have any problems selling the tuner, given how many of us chipped into the Kickstarter program and how many were sold. I already have 2 of the new tuners otherwise I'd be happy to buy yours. I live in Columbus, Ohio and we have 3 local stations which are supposed to start broadcasting ATSC 3.0 in a few hours. I'll be interested to see if my Yamaha RX-A3080 AV receiver will decode AC4. Given it supports Dolby Vision I believe I will be fine. We'll see.


Jeff

boardrashx
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Re: AC-4 Audio?

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kyl416
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Re: AC-4 Audio?

Post by kyl416 »

jbinkley60 wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 5:05 am I live in Columbus, Ohio and we have 3 local stations which are supposed to start broadcasting ATSC 3.0 in a few hours.
Where did you hear that? Not a single Ohio station has made "Modification to License (Next Gen)" filings with the FCC, which they are required to do well in advanced of any switch to ATSC 3.0.

So far only the following DMAs have stations that have made filings:
Austin, TX
Boise - LPTV only
Dallas - Fort Worth
Denver
Detroit
Las Vegas
Los Angeles - LPTV only
Medford - Klamath Falls - LPTV only
Mobile - Pensacola (Fort Walton Beach)
Nashville
Norfolk - Portsmouth - Newport News
Oklahoma City
Phoenix
Pittsburgh
Portland, OR
Raleigh - Durham (Fayetteville)
Salt Lake City
San Antonio
Santa Barbara - Santa Maria - San Luis Obispo - LPTV only
Seattle - Tacoma
Springfield - Holyoke, MA
Tampa - Saint Petersburg (Sarasota)

(Orlando did at one point too, but that station has since made a filing to go back to ATSC 1.0 operations)
"LPTV only" means only a low power license filed to switch to ATSC 3.0 in that DMA, so that can be anything from random testing, or in Boise's case, a subscription OTA service mostly carrying encrypted cable channels.
Last edited by kyl416 on Thu Dec 03, 2020 12:51 pm, edited 5 times in total.

CBme
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Re: AC-4 Audio?

Post by CBme »

jbinkley60 wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 5:05 am I live in Columbus, Ohio and we have 3 local stations which are supposed to start broadcasting ATSC 3.0 in a few hours. I'll be interested to see if my Yamaha RX-A3080 AV receiver will decode AC4. Given it supports Dolby Vision I believe I will be fine. We'll see.
Jeff
As Kyle notes, that isn't likely to be the case as there are no FCC filings, which are required. Though that would be all sorts of interesting if they actually did become a pirate broadcaster. :)

To see filings go here:
https://enterpriseefiling.fcc.gov/datae ... earch.html
Purpose: Modification of License (nextgen)
Service: Full service Television
State: whichever you are interested in.

kyl416
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Re: AC-4 Audio?

Post by kyl416 »

You also want to click the include amendments flag before doing a search, otherwise you'll miss stations that made updates since their initial filing to do something like change the date or clarify the multicast arrangements. (Or in Orlando's case, switch back to ATSC 1.0)

There's so few NextGen filings that you don't need to filter by state. Just switch the results to show 100 per page and everything will be on 2 pages. Plus many markets cross-states so you would need to do multiple state searches to see all of them. (i.e. Portland's ATSC 3.0 situation also involves filings made for stations based in Vancouver, WA)

petemitchell
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Re: AC-4 Audio?

Post by petemitchell »

CBme wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 12:04 pm
jbinkley60 wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 5:05 am I live in Columbus, Ohio and we have 3 local stations which are supposed to start broadcasting ATSC 3.0 in a few hours. I'll be interested to see if my Yamaha RX-A3080 AV receiver will decode AC4. Given it supports Dolby Vision I believe I will be fine. We'll see.
Jeff
As Kyle notes, that isn't likely to be the case as there are no FCC filings, which are required. Though that would be all sorts of interesting if they actually did become a pirate broadcaster. :)

To see filings go here:
https://enterpriseefiling.fcc.gov/datae ... earch.html
Purpose: Modification of License (nextgen)
Service: Full service Television
State: whichever you are interested in.
Dunno. This was posted on their website on October 30. I guess if someone in Columbus has an ATSC 3.0 tuner they could test it.
https://abc6onyourside.com/news/local/h ... on-your-tb

Alderem
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Re: AC-4 Audio?

Post by Alderem »

To those who have have felt misled about the Quatro 4K's capabilities, I'd like to give more context to what I mentioned in the 8 Nov 2020 thread.
  • If you went through the analog-to-digital TV transition 11 years ago, that went pretty smoothly due to the FCC's "digital mandate." New equipment sold had to support the new standard, and the government ran a marketing campaign to educate the public.

    This transition is drastically different. There's no mandate that new equipment support the new standard, and no mandate for stations to switch the new standard. (There is only a mandate that stations broadcasting ATSC3 must simulcast ATSC1 for five years.) New equipment can still be sold today that can't handle ATSC 3.0. The lack of strong leadership from the FCC in this transition has made this situation a real mess.
    .
  • During the A-to-D transition, the broadcasting industry sold and marketed a number of "digital tuners", but this was a misleading and simplified name - these devices were tuner/decoder/converters that downgraded high definition content into something old equipment could handle.

    The Quatro 4K is just a tuner. The Kickstarter was truthful about its capabilities. If your equipment cannot handle HEVC and AC-4 in a transport stream, then the Quatro 4K can't solve that for you, at least not in its current form.

    If you want to consume ATSC 3 HEVC/AC-4 content on devices that don't natively support it, you'd have to transcode the content into something that is neither ATSC3 nor ATSC1 (ATSC1 would limit you to 1080p, and people probably wouldn't be thrilled with that as a solution). Theoretically it's do-able. If Netflix can stream 4K to your TV... yeah, there could be a way to do that with OTA television. But that's asking for the Quatro 4K to be more than just a tuner, which is all that was it was ever promised to be.
I feel like the fix SD is currently working on (to select an ATSC1 station over ATSC3) is the simplest, best fix.

kyl416
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Re: AC-4 Audio?

Post by kyl416 »

petemitchell wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 1:16 pmDunno. This was posted on their website on October 30. I guess if someone in Columbus has an ATSC 3.0 tuner they could test it.
https://abc6onyourside.com/news/local/h ... on-your-tb
WSYX and its sister Sinclair stations WWHO and WTTE have not made ANY Next Gen filings. Neither did any of the stations owned by the usual ATSC 3.0 participants like Nexstar's WCMH or Tegna's WBNS.

This isn't a matter of "the station said they're converting and the FCC said they're not, who should I believe?" If any of them switched to ATSC 3.0 without making Next Gen filings first, they would be ordered by the FCC to immediately cease ATSC 3.0 operations and resume ATSC 1.0 operations until they make a Next Gen filing that is granted by the FCC, or lose their license to broadcast entirely. Along with paying any associatied fines levied against them for broadcasting with parameters that differ from their current FCC license.

boardrashx
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Re: AC-4 Audio?

Post by boardrashx »

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jbinkley60
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Re: AC-4 Audio?

Post by jbinkley60 »

petemitchell wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 1:16 pm
CBme wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 12:04 pm
jbinkley60 wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 5:05 am I live in Columbus, Ohio and we have 3 local stations which are supposed to start broadcasting ATSC 3.0 in a few hours. I'll be interested to see if my Yamaha RX-A3080 AV receiver will decode AC4. Given it supports Dolby Vision I believe I will be fine. We'll see.
Jeff
As Kyle notes, that isn't likely to be the case as there are no FCC filings, which are required. Though that would be all sorts of interesting if they actually did become a pirate broadcaster. :)

To see filings go here:
https://enterpriseefiling.fcc.gov/datae ... earch.html
Purpose: Modification of License (nextgen)
Service: Full service Television
State: whichever you are interested in.
Dunno. This was posted on their website on October 30. I guess if someone in Columbus has an ATSC 3.0 tuner they could test it.
https://abc6onyourside.com/news/local/h ... on-your-tb
Sorry, I missed these thread updates before starting a new Columbus, Ohio ATSC 3.0 thread. I have 2 Quatro 4K tuners and am not seeing any of the three, which claimed they were going to start ATSC 3.0 broadcasting today, actually broadcasting ATSC 3.0. Everything is still ATSC 1.0.

Image


Jeff

Alderem
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Re: AC-4 Audio?

Post by Alderem »

boardrashx wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 1:50 pm
Alderem wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 1:25 pm To those who have have felt misled about the Quatro 4K's capabilities, I'd like to give more context to what I mentioned ...
So you honestly feel that SD was upfront enough about this? I certainly don't, and I see now that I'm not the only one with such sentiment.

If this product had been sold retail this issue would result in a 95%+ return rate.
No, I'm not saying that SD was sufficiently upfront. When I said that their Kickstarter was truthful... I didn't mean to imply that being truthful was enough. I think everyone can agree that their messaging could have been clearer. (That's something I said in the other thread that I linked to.)

All I am trying to do is provide some clarity around the Quatro 4K's limitations. I hope that the information and insight is useful.

NedS
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Re: AC-4 Audio?

Post by NedS »

boardrashx wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 11:33 am
NedS wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 11:23 pm We have already added AC-4 support to our app for a number of platforms and devices, and continue to work on enabling more devices. Many additional devices without AC-4 support can also add an HDMI soundbar (or AVR) with AC-4 support.
Huh? So are you saying that this extremely sparse compilation of working devices is not accurate and complete?

viewtopic.php?f=133&t=74635
Yes, that's why we don't have an official list yet.

NedS
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Re: AC-4 Audio?

Post by NedS »

boardrashx wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 1:50 pm
Alderem wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 1:25 pm To those who have have felt misled about the Quatro 4K's capabilities, I'd like to give more context to what I mentioned ...
So you honestly feel that SD was upfront enough about this? I certainly don't, and I see now that I'm not the only one with such sentiment.

If this product had been sold retail this issue would result in a 95%+ return rate.
We were entirely upfront about this issue, but if you feel mislead, lied to, or deceived, please open a support ticket and we will arrange a refund. Our official policy is a 30 day return window, but we can make exceptions on a case by case basis, and we are willing to do so for you. Especially with COVID going on this year, we've tried to be extra flexible about returns and such, as most companies are.

Dartman
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Re: AC-4 Audio?

Post by Dartman »

Well, pretty sure I read the disclaimer about audio support but was hoping something of the many media players and streamers I own would support everything. So far the only setup that has audio is Windows 10. I'm not upset as getting in on the ground floor of a new technology and format is going to have issues like this till everyone catches up. Some new ideas flop, HD DVD, BetaMax, Laser Disk anyone? I figure eventually something player wise I own will get updated or something new I like will come out for a good deal. Maybe my new Roku Ultra 2020, maybe the Shield... Who knows.
By the way I own HD DVD, and Laser Disk players and media, they still work, just no new media for them.

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