ATSC 3.0 Portland: QUATRO 4K

ATSC 3.0 Forum
nickk
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Re: ATSC 3.0 Portland: QUATRO 4K

Post by nickk »

You can check the sub-channels are being detected on physical 30 and 33 using HDHomeRun Config GUI (see PLP post at the top of the forum).

The video seems to be missing the SPS NAL which is needed to determine the width/height/aspect of the video.

The channel scan favors the highest resolution and therefore favors ATSC 1.0 as it has a reported resolution.

We have requested feedback from atsc-org.

Nick

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Re: ATSC 3.0 Portland: QUATRO 4K

Post by KU7PDX »

ejohannes wrote: Wed Oct 14, 2020 9:06 pm I just got my 4K unit today here in the Portland area.
Just to be clear, right now even with the very latest firmware, which I have loaded up, the 4K broadcast viewing is not working, correct?
I do see the atsc 3 on 33 and 30. But can't seem to tune to them. And when I try going to channel 2-1 (which has the 4k broadcast, instead it goes to 24 for the ATSC 1.0 broadcast). So there are two channels for 2.1 and the 3.0 one doesn't show up in the channel list. Which I think is what was described earlier in this discussion.

Is there any kind of ETA on when the issues maybe resolved? And will the solutions work on all the viewers like the FireTV?
I'll add that there are currently no 4K resolution broadcasts in Portland. KATU, KPTV, and KPDX are native 720p, and KOIN, KGW, KOPB, and KRCW are upconverted to 1080p. KATU is embedding SL-HDR1 metadata.

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Re: ATSC 3.0 Portland: QUATRO 4K

Post by KU7PDX »

nickk wrote: Wed Oct 14, 2020 1:44 pm New firmware update out.

The HDHomeRun will now detect the sub-channels correctly, however the HEVC video is missing SPS NALs so it won't play. I have a query into ATSC regarding this.

Nick
Hey Nick,

I got the new firmware installed and I confirm that the HDHomeRun Config GUI is definitely detecting the sub-channels. Definitely interested in what you hear from ATSC, thanks!

nickk
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Re: ATSC 3.0 Portland: QUATRO 4K

Post by nickk »

Problem is understood - the SPS header is hidden inside a stsd box in the mp4 init file.

Hopefully we will have firmware update out tomorrow (Thursday) to make it work.

Nick

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Re: ATSC 3.0 Portland: QUATRO 4K

Post by KU7PDX »

nickk wrote: Wed Oct 14, 2020 11:54 pm Problem is understood - the SPS header is hidden inside a stsd box in the mp4 init file.

Hopefully we will have firmware update out tomorrow (Thursday) to make it work.

Nick
Awesome, you guys are amazing! Thank you for your hard work!

ejohannes
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Re: ATSC 3.0 Portland: QUATRO 4K

Post by ejohannes »

KU7PDX wrote: Wed Oct 14, 2020 10:15 pm I'll add that there are currently no 4K resolution broadcasts in Portland. KATU, KPTV, and KPDX are native 720p, and KOIN, KGW, KOPB, and KRCW are upconverted to 1080p. KATU is embedding SL-HDR1 metadata.
That is a bit disappointing. I guess 1080P is better than 1080i, but a far cry from true 4k.
So this brings many questions to my mind:
Out of curiosity, are there any stations around the country that are doing true 4K?
Does each station need to upgrade their equipment?
Is there equipment they share at the tower for 4K?
Are the networks sending 4K streams to the stations for their programming, at least for live events like the Seattle Seahawks games as they go on to win the NFC title and the Superbowl?

How will we ever be able to tell if we are looking at a true 4k transmission once they start doing it for real? And does anybody know when the Portland stations will do it for real?

jakep82
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Re: ATSC 3.0 Portland: QUATRO 4K

Post by jakep82 »

Most of these questions are better aimed at the broadcasters. Silicondust has no control over what they choose to do. My understanding is that while some 4K test channels may exist, no local broadcast stations are producing any content in 4K right now. Even the "4K" Super Bowl stream earlier this year was just upscaled 1080P.

I personally don't expect to see any true 4K content for quite a while because the cost to upgrade cameras and other equipment required to produce 4K is substantial, and the difference in picture quality is minor.

Trip
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Re: ATSC 3.0 Portland: QUATRO 4K

Post by Trip »

ejohannes wrote: Thu Oct 15, 2020 9:25 am Out of curiosity, are there any stations around the country that are doing true 4K?
An announcement went out that a subscription service in Idaho launched one yesterday. That's the only one I know of.
ejohannes wrote: Thu Oct 15, 2020 9:25 am Does each station need to upgrade their equipment?
Yes.
ejohannes wrote: Thu Oct 15, 2020 9:25 am Is there equipment they share at the tower for 4K?
Right now, all the stations have to share in order to convert to 3.0. That is part of the reason 4K is not available, as it would take up more than half of the available bandwidth for a single channel.
ejohannes wrote: Thu Oct 15, 2020 9:25 am Are the networks sending 4K streams to the stations for their programming, at least for live events like the Seattle Seahawks games as they go on to win the NFC title and the Superbowl?
To my knowledge, no.
ejohannes wrote: Thu Oct 15, 2020 9:25 am How will we ever be able to tell if we are looking at a true 4k transmission once they start doing it for real? And does anybody know when the Portland stations will do it for real?
I'm not expecting stations to switch to 4K any time soon. HDR, yes, as there's a minimal bandwidth penalty for a very noticeable improvement in quality. 4K, not so much.

- Trip

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Re: ATSC 3.0 Portland: QUATRO 4K

Post by KU7PDX »

ejohannes wrote: Thu Oct 15, 2020 9:25 am Out of curiosity, are there any stations around the country that are doing true 4K?
Does each station need to upgrade their equipment?
Is there equipment they share at the tower for 4K?
Are the networks sending 4K streams to the stations for their programming, at least for live events like the Seattle Seahawks games as they go on to win the NFC title and the Superbowl?

How will we ever be able to tell if we are looking at a true 4k transmission once they start doing it for real? And does anybody know when the Portland stations will do it for real?
To add to what Trip wrote, the transmitters and NextGen TV encoders & exciters being used are indeed capable of 4K. When networks start upgrading their content to 4K, that is when you'll see broadcasters start upgrading to accommodate to pass through the 4K.

Pretty much every TV I know of will display what resolution it is receiving, 720p, 1080i, 1080p, etc. I suspect that 4K content will either be listed as such or will show as 2160p.

The lighthouse period for NextGen TV broadcasts is scheduled to last 5 years and then broadcasters can individually go to NextGen TV broadcasting full-time. That is when they'll have enough bandwidth to support 4K transmission and will probably match up pretty closely to when networks start providing that content as well.

One of the cool things about NextGen TV is that if your television (or NextGen TV receiver) is also connected to the internet, is that it can receive additional content from broadcasters via the internet (kinda like the Stirr app). I suspect this is where we'll see 4K content delivered first.

nickk
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Re: ATSC 3.0 Portland: QUATRO 4K

Post by nickk »

New firmware is out.

menkelis
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Re: ATSC 3.0 Portland: QUATRO 4K

Post by menkelis »

Downloaded and rescanned.
Now showing HEVC icons on channels.
The Config-GUI is able to launch video player for
the atsc3 channel, no audio.
Subtitles are working.

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Re: ATSC 3.0 Portland: QUATRO 4K

Post by KU7PDX »

menkelis wrote: Thu Oct 15, 2020 3:05 pm Downloaded and rescanned.
Now showing HEVC icons on channels.
The Config-GUI is able to launch video player for
the atsc3 channel, no audio.
Subtitles are working.
NextGen TV uses AC-4 audio. I don't know when VLC will add AC-4 support. :(

methnen
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Re: ATSC 3.0 Portland: QUATRO 4K

Post by methnen »

Portland, OR user here. Latest firmware does now properly identify the ATSC3/HEVC channels.

However, the channels appear to be unwatchable.

Using the HDHomerun apps on desktop (Mac) and mobile (iPhone/AppleTV) I just get a blank screen on the ATSC3/HEVC channels.

Using the Channels app on iOS does bring up a watchable channel but it pauses/hitches every few seconds for a second or two making it essentially unwatchable.

Other non ATSC3/HEVC channels work.

This is with the 20201015 firmware.

ejohannes
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Re: ATSC 3.0 Portland: QUATRO 4K

Post by ejohannes »

I have updated my unit to the latest firmware.
As another poster mentioned, I do see the HEVC indicator next to some of the channels. Also as the earlier poster mentioned, now the streaming doesn't work of those channels that display the symbols.
If I use the HDHomeRun PC App they briefly come up choppy and then freeze up completely. When I try to use the FireTV App to tune to those channels, it doesn't even attempt to display them, it says "unable to play channel: No Video Data". With either of the apps I now have no way to play those channels since it selects the HEVC broadcast where as before the firmware update it was selecting the HD broadcast and playing the stream correctly. Non HEVC channels continue playing correctly. I suspect the app on my LG TV will be the same. They don't seem to play on my iphone's HD app.

Going to the HDHomeRun Setup program I did a scan to pick up the channels. Each channel only appears once. Taking the PBS channels, channel 10, 10.4 appears on tuner 30-4 (the HEVC one) and the rest of their channels appear on tuner 10 (not HEVC). Even though I can't bring up the channel on the apps, I can bring it up using the Setup program to bring up VLC to display it. The video appears to run smoothly in VLC for the HEVC stream but there is no sound.

VLC Screen shot of the media Information for the 10.1 HEVC stream:

Image

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Re: ATSC 3.0 Portland: QUATRO 4K

Post by KU7PDX »

nickk wrote: Thu Oct 15, 2020 2:26 pm New firmware is out.
Got it loaded up and the NextGen TV transmissions are being detected now!

When trying to use the latest Windows beta release of the HDHomeRun software, I'm receiving a "Unable to play channel: Resource error" message when trying to play any of the HEVC streams -- but it's definitely a start. Hopefully it's just a matter of the applications now catching up!

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