HDHomeRun QUATRO 4K for ATSC 3.0

ATSC 3.0 Forum
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tonywagner
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Re: HDHomeRun QUATRO 4K for ATSC 3.0

Post by tonywagner »

mrfrankmrfrank wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 3:59 pmI'm specifically using tvheadend. I export a .m3u of my prime tuners which lists the address of each channel. http://192.168.2.188:5004/auto/v124 for example. Then I have tvheadend to know there are 3 available tuners able to use that .m3u How the selection of which tuner of the available 3 in my prime at address 192.168.2.188 happens is unknown to me. I'd assume the prime serves an available tuner as it is requested. For example I can put http://192.168.2.188:5004/auto/v124 into vlc and start watching the channel, how that tuner was selected must have happened on the prime. How tvheadend would select the 4k stream / hevc stream I'd assume would come from some sort of auto selection on the quatro
"Auto" as you describe is easy for tuner selection, because you're just requesting a specific channel number and frequency. For example, you requesting specific channel 5.1 and the hardware simply delivers it from the first available tuner.

But HEVC stream preference would have to be handled in software, because the HEVC stream will live on a different channel number and frequency from the current ATSC 1.0 stream. For example, in Raleigh NC right now, the NBC affiliate is on 5.1 but has also gone live on ATSC 3.0 at 39.1. The HDHomerun hardware doesn't know that 5.1 and 39.1 are both NBC, in fact the hardware doesn't know what NBC is or what programs are the same on both channels. That's up to software.

And actually, this already exists in tvheadend (and I suspect most DVR software). If you go to Configuration, then your Stream profile, you'll see a drop down menu for "Preferred service video type" where you can select SD, HD, FHD, and UHD. Then, when you schedule "Saturday Night Live" to record on NBC, for example, tvheadend will see the same show exists in the EPG data of both 5.1 and 39.1, can request whichever one your preferences indicate.

Edit to add: using your example URLs, the old ATSC 1.0 stream would be at http://192.168.1.5:5004/auto/v5.1 and the new HEVC stream at http://192.168.1.5:5004/auto/v39.1 -- the HDHomerun will never translate one of those links to the other. It's up to your software to know the same program is at both links/channels, and to request which one it wants.
Last edited by tonywagner on Sun Apr 26, 2020 8:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

tonywagner
Posts: 171
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Re: HDHomeRun QUATRO 4K for ATSC 3.0

Post by tonywagner »

dickpam38 wrote: Sat Apr 25, 2020 9:06 am I am wondering if LG 2019 UHD smart TV's will support this
If the TV supports 4K video, I imagine it supports HEVC. It would just be a matter of having an app on the TV (or on a HEVC capable device connected to the TV -- Fire Stick 4K, etc.) to play the stream from the HDHomerun device

mrfrankmrfrank
Posts: 37
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Re: HDHomeRun QUATRO 4K for ATSC 3.0

Post by mrfrankmrfrank »

tonywagner wrote: Sun Apr 26, 2020 8:12 am
mrfrankmrfrank wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 3:59 pmI'm specifically using tvheadend. I export a .m3u of my prime tuners which lists the address of each channel. http://192.168.2.188:5004/auto/v124 for example. Then I have tvheadend to know there are 3 available tuners able to use that .m3u How the selection of which tuner of the available 3 in my prime at address 192.168.2.188 happens is unknown to me. I'd assume the prime serves an available tuner as it is requested. For example I can put http://192.168.2.188:5004/auto/v124 into vlc and start watching the channel, how that tuner was selected must have happened on the prime. How tvheadend would select the 4k stream / hevc stream I'd assume would come from some sort of auto selection on the quatro
"Auto" as you describe is easy for tuner selection, because you're just requesting a specific channel number and frequency. For example, you requesting specific channel 5.1 and the hardware simply delivers it from the first available tuner.

But HEVC stream preference would have to be handled in software, because the HEVC stream will live on a different channel number and frequency from the current ATSC 1.0 stream. For example, in Raleigh NC right now, the NBC affiliate is on 5.1 but has also gone live on ATSC 3.0 at 39.1. The HDHomerun hardware doesn't know that 5.1 and 39.1 are both NBC, in fact the hardware doesn't know what NBC is or what programs are the same on both channels. That's up to software.

And actually, this already exists in tvheadend (and I suspect most DVR software). If you go to Configuration, then your Stream profile, you'll see a drop down menu for "Preferred service video type" where you can select SD, HD, FHD, and UHD. Then, when you schedule "Saturday Night Live" to record on NBC, for example, tvheadend will see the same show exists in the EPG data of both 5.1 and 39.1, can request whichever one your preferences indicate.

Edit to add: using your example URLs, the old ATSC 1.0 stream would be at http://192.168.1.5:5004/auto/v5.1 and the new HEVC stream at http://192.168.1.5:5004/auto/v39.1 -- the HDHomerun will never translate one of those links to the other. It's up to your software to know the same program is at both links/channels, and to request which one it wants.
"because the HEVC stream will live on a different channel number and frequency from the current ATSC 1.0 stream."

this is the answer I needed. I was under the impression that ATSC 3.0 streams may end up being on the same channel than their 1.0 counterparts. I guess I didn't think it through that they couldn't be broadcasting 1.0 and 3.0 on the same channel. tvheadend is fully capable of having channel number preferences for programs regardless of channel number and if ATSC 3.0 streams are on a different channel, say 39.1 then I can easily tell tvheadend to use that "service"

Originally I was trying to anticipate how the quatro would choose to prefer the HEVC stream if the channel numbers were the same.

jbragg89
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Joined: Sun Apr 26, 2020 10:51 am

Re: HDHomeRun QUATRO 4K for ATSC 3.0

Post by jbragg89 »

How will Dolby AC-4 work in this system? The Kickstarter doesn't mention it. What happens If you are using HDHomeRun QUATRO 4K with a non-AC-4 compatible playback device? Dolby says that AC-4 isn't backwards compatible.
https://developerkb.dolby.com/support/s ... -networks-
Is the HDHomeRun capable of doing the decoding of the AC-4 (and presumably personalizing the audio: dialogue volume, language swap) prior to sending it along the the playback device in a format it is capable of decoding?

tonywagner
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Re: HDHomeRun QUATRO 4K for ATSC 3.0

Post by tonywagner »

jbragg89 wrote: Sun Apr 26, 2020 11:05 am How will Dolby AC-4 work in this system? The Kickstarter doesn't mention it. What happens If you are using HDHomeRun QUATRO 4K with a non-AC-4 compatible playback device? Dolby says that AC-4 isn't backwards compatible.
https://developerkb.dolby.com/support/s ... -networks-
Is the HDHomeRun capable of doing the decoding of the AC-4 (and presumably personalizing the audio: dialogue volume, language swap) prior to sending it along the the playback device in a format it is capable of decoding?
My guess is that audio is the same as video: if your device doesn't support the codec, it won't play it back. The Quatro 4K will just pass everything through to the client, and isn't going to transcode anything.

tonywagner
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Re: HDHomeRun QUATRO 4K for ATSC 3.0

Post by tonywagner »

From the FAQ:
The HDHomeRun QUATRO 4K supports streaming 4 virtual channels at once.... 4 channels won't max out a 100Mbps link.
Shouldn't that be 6 channels at once? 2 each on the two ATSC 3.0 tuners, and 2 more on the remaining two ATSC 1.0 tuners?

Also, what about software that grabs the full physical channel mux, so it can record unlimited subchannels as necessary? Like MediaPortal: https://forum.team-mediaportal.com/thre ... ost-914479

nickk
Silicondust
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Re: HDHomeRun QUATRO 4K for ATSC 3.0

Post by nickk »

tonywagner wrote: Sun Apr 26, 2020 11:16 am From the FAQ:
The HDHomeRun QUATRO 4K supports streaming 4 virtual channels at once.... 4 channels won't max out a 100Mbps link.
Shouldn't that be 6 channels at once? 2 each on the two ATSC 3.0 tuners, and 2 more on the remaining two ATSC 1.0 tuners?
4 virtual channels total - all 4 can be ATSC1, ATSC3, or any mix of the two.
tonywagner wrote: Sun Apr 26, 2020 11:16 am Also, what about software that grabs the full physical channel mux, so it can record unlimited subchannels as necessary? Like MediaPortal: https://forum.team-mediaportal.com/thre ... ost-914479
We have dev modes which will get you all packets on the selected PLPs (which may not be all PLPs on the channel). That won't help Mediaportal which needs MPEG-TS.
For MPEG-TS based apps you need to ask the HDHomeRun to stream a specific virtual channel (max 4).

Nick

AzJazz
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Re: HDHomeRun QUATRO 4K for ATSC 3.0

Post by AzJazz »

dickpam38 wrote: Sat Apr 25, 2020 9:06 am I am wondering if LG 2019 UHD smart TV's will support this
If you mean "natively" receive ATSC 3.0 broadcasts, the answer is: Nope. This would require a hardware change to the LG TV tuners to support ATSC 3.0.

A few of the upper-end 2020 LG OLED TVs will support ATSC 3.0, according to a recent CNET article.

If you mean natively playback HEVC streams, sure. That's what UHD and HDR are generally encoded with. My 2018 LG OLED TV plays HEVC streams from Plex without a hitch.

AzJazz
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Real-Time Signal Strength / Signal Quality / Symbol Meters

Post by AzJazz »

Hi - Will there be real-time Signal Strength / Signal Quality / Symbol Meters (or their equivalent) available for all purchasers of the QUATRO 4K?

There used to be a HDHomerun GUI tool for this on the HDHomeRun many years ago, but I can't find it anymore on the Win10 HDHomeRun application.

The one-time read through the my.hdhomerun.com web page interface is less than worthless, there is no value in that single reading, even when hitting F5 repeatedly to refresh the data.

My signal reception at home in Phoenix is marginal, and I need a real-time display of signal to fine-tune my antenna position.

nickk
Silicondust
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Re: Real-Time Signal Strength / Signal Quality / Symbol Meters

Post by nickk »

AzJazz wrote: Sun Apr 26, 2020 1:01 pm Hi - Will there be real-time Signal Strength / Signal Quality / Symbol Meters (or their equivalent) available for all purchasers of the QUATRO 4K?

There used to be a HDHomerun GUI tool for this on the HDHomeRun many years ago, but I can't find it anymore on the Win10 HDHomeRun application.

The one-time read through the my.hdhomerun.com web page interface is less than worthless, there is no value in that single reading, even when hitting F5 repeatedly to refresh the data.

My signal reception at home in Phoenix is marginal, and I need a real-time display of signal to fine-tune my antenna position.
HDHomeRun Config GUI is still available as part of the HDHomeRun Software.

Go Start, Run, and enter "c:\Program Files\Silicondust\HDHomeRun\hdhomerun_config_gui.exe"

Nick

tonywagner
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Re: HDHomeRun QUATRO 4K for ATSC 3.0

Post by tonywagner »

nickk wrote: Sun Apr 26, 2020 12:26 pm 4 virtual channels total - all 4 can be ATSC1, ATSC3, or any mix of the two.
Hmm. So it's not really capable of 4 ATSC 3.0 streams from just 2 tuners? You have to occupy the remaining 2 ATSC 1.0 hardware tuners to achieve that?

This reminds me of the "Premium TV" setup, where you had to tie up OTA tuners just to receive an internet stream.

Why not just use "virtual tuners" in this instance?

tonywagner
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Re: Real-Time Signal Strength / Signal Quality / Symbol Meters

Post by tonywagner »

nickk wrote: Sun Apr 26, 2020 1:51 pm HDHomeRun Config GUI is still available as part of the HDHomeRun Software.
I love the HDHomeRun Config GUI program -- but you should bring it back in the Mac software bundle!

NedS
Silicondust
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Re: Real-Time Signal Strength / Signal Quality / Symbol Meters

Post by NedS »

tonywagner wrote: Sun Apr 26, 2020 5:13 pm
nickk wrote: Sun Apr 26, 2020 1:51 pm HDHomeRun Config GUI is still available as part of the HDHomeRun Software.
I love the HDHomeRun Config GUI program -- but you should bring it back in the Mac software bundle!
Unfortunately for Mac OS it will require rewriting the program. Even if you have an older copy of it, it won't run on Mac OS 10.15.

tonywagner
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Re: Real-Time Signal Strength / Signal Quality / Symbol Meters

Post by tonywagner »

NedS wrote: Sun Apr 26, 2020 7:04 pm Unfortunately for Mac OS it will require rewriting the program. Even if you have an older copy of it, it won't run on Mac OS 10.15.
I know, I tried that. :)

I wonder, could you make those signal meters platform agnostic and put them in the web interface? I’ve learned to use the hdhomerun_config CLI tool now, but when I first started with your products and OTA in general, the GUI signal meter was key for antenna placement and testing. (I’ve also used unofficial apps but it would be nice to have a universal method.)

mrfrankmrfrank
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Re: HDHomeRun QUATRO 4K for ATSC 3.0

Post by mrfrankmrfrank »

I'm just trying to think ahead and get my mind around how I'll end up setting up tvheadend to work with a product I don't even have yet. In the past the channel lineup web configurator offered by quatros and primes were tuner indifferent because the channels were available to any tuner in the box because all tuners were the same. In tvheadend when I create the .m3u it has the urls of all the channels and I tell tvheadend to use that m3u and that it has 3 available tuners for the prime per m3u and 4 for the quatro per m3u. This creates the muxes for channel > url > available tuner. If I choose to watch a channel tvheadend looks at the available services, finds a prime box / ip / looks at the m3u, hits auto tuner, and knows I'm using x of available tuners based on what I set in tvheadend.

I'm trying to picture how this will work with the quatro 4k as I believe this might be the first time silicondust (at least that i've worked with) will have different tuner types available under a single ip. As I was informed earlier 4k channels will likely be given their own channel numbers under ATSC 3.0... which only 2 of the 4 tuners in the quatro 4k could tune to correct? This means that unless I'm picturing this differently, I would end up having to create different m3u's for import into tvheadend.

I've kind of thought of it this way... say the quatro 4k has ip 192.168.2.188 then a sample m3u for a single tuner in the quatro would be as follows
http://192.168.2.188:5004/tuner1/v124 for a single channel

Then if I create m3u's for each individual tuner

http://192.168.2.188:5004/tuner2/v124
http://192.168.2.188:5004/tuner3/v124
http://192.168.2.188:5004/tuner4/v124

each with their own m3u imported into tvheadend with tuning capabilities set to 1 tuner each this would give me the granularity to prioritize tuners of shows in the 4k hevc vs I have no idea what would happen if I simply create one m3u for the entire quatro and tell tvheadend to us all 4 tuners.

Say channel 38 is an ATSC 3.0 channel and tuners 1 and 2 can tune it, but 3 and 4 can't... then any form of auto channels m3u in tvheadend would potentially fail.. If tvheadend thinks it has 4 tuners available for a single channel list configured on the device but the first 2 tuners are occupied and it tries on tuner 3 to tune 38 it would fail if I'm picturing this right.


btw guys this is just talking points / trying to plan out the future. I love silicondust products and have been a customer for I'm thinking at least 10 years now. I've invested a lot of time into tvheadend and my setup, just excited to incorporate a new technology and watch some nice tv in 4k. I understand tvheadend isn't necessarily a concern or priority for silicondust but i'm sure there are other users out there that might be planning to set this up with tvheadend thus me talking out loud.

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