ATSC 3.0: Raleigh/Durham

ATSC 3.0 Forum
NedS
Silicondust
Posts: 1682
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 12:38 pm
x 74

Re: ATSC 3.0: Raleigh/Durham

Post by NedS »

rljnc wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:12 pm Okay guys I know most of us are on the ground breaking of this and kind of know a little of what is going on, but to even release 3.0 when most of the users kind of know a little something and they cannot get audio playing do you not think this is premature? How in the world would the regular person even begin, just seems a lot of things needed to be in place before it even started. Just my opinion.
This really isn't any different than when NTSC was replaced with ATSC 1.0. Even today you will still find devices that don't support AC-3 audio (like many Roku units and the new "Fire TV Stick Lite" from Amazon). Getting audio to work with ATSC 1.0 is still one of the major support ticket topics we get.

Many of the issues still being seen are happening on the broadcaster's side, because they're also still learning about ATSC 3.0. This is an experimental phase in more ways than one. A lot of stuff is still being figured out by all parties, but thankfully the hardware portion is set, so any software issues can be fixed with a software update.

That being said, I do think we can do better at communicating the current status of development with our users who've already bought the HDHR5-4K. I will bring it up internally and see what we can come up with.

krv
Posts: 20
Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2020 12:13 pm
x 9

Re: ATSC 3.0: Raleigh/Durham

Post by krv »

Crash*N*Burn wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 3:21 pm Also wth is with 17.1, the video looks like it's being squished, is that source or the SD tuner???
I am not sure what is going on with 17.1, but i think that it is a problem with some of the HDHomeRun apps. I have looked at it on 3 different system and it was different on all three:

1. On a Roku TV running the HDHomeRun app the picture looked great and was in the correct aspect ratio.

2. On Windows 10 using the HDHomeRun app from the Microsoft store the picture looks like this:
Image

2. On a Chromecast with Google TV running the HDHomeRun app from the android store the picture looks like this:
Image

The other 4 ATSC 3.0 channels available look fine on all devices, but this one seems to be problematic on some systems, though it did look good on the Roku TV. If anyone has any insight, please share.

jasonl
Expert
Posts: 15369
Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2007 9:23 pm
x 12

Re: ATSC 3.0: Raleigh/Durham

Post by jasonl »

It's probably 1080i. A lot of decoders (including ffmpeg, which is the basis for pretty much every open-source app out there including VLC and Kodi) don't properly support interlaced HEVC video, because outside of the world of broadcast TV, interlaced video is basically dead and buried. And, until ATSC 3 broadcasts started in the US, interlaced HEVC was limited to a handful of European satellite channels, and it didn't affect enough people for anyone to care. Because of the way interlaced video is handled in HEVC, if the decoder doesn't support interlaced video, the output effectively turns into progressive video at half the vertical height, so 1920x1080i becomes 1920x540p, and thus you get a picture that is squished vertically. Now that there is more interlaced HEVC in the wild, there's more incentive for developers to actually take the time to implement it, but it's anyone's guess as to when that might happen.

Crash*N*Burn
Posts: 25
Joined: Sat Apr 25, 2020 8:42 pm
x 1

Re: ATSC 3.0: Raleigh/Durham

Post by Crash*N*Burn »

So it's a problem with the hd home run software from the ms store, but you can't see or hear the channel unless you use the version from the ms store to get the HEVC addon from the developer to see or hear the channel, got it.

krv
Posts: 20
Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2020 12:13 pm
x 9

Re: ATSC 3.0: Raleigh/Durham

Post by krv »

jasonl wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 10:29 pm It's probably 1080i.
Yes, thanks, that is exactly what is going on. WRDC is just broadcasting the same feed to ATSC 3.0 as they are ATSC 1.0, so 11.1, 22.1, 28.1 which broadcast at 720p all look fine, but 17.1 which broadcasts at 1080i doesn't. That also explains why it looks fine on a Roku tv, because the tv deals with the interlaced video.

grommet
Posts: 1
Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:28 pm

Re: ATSC 3.0: Raleigh/Durham

Post by grommet »

Hey y’all - just got a HDHR 4k and have a quick question. Do y’all of a way to revert back to ATSC 1 content for the handful of channels that are broadcasting HEVC? Channels 11 and 17 drop packets pretty consistently through my Apple TV channels app which makes for an irritating viewing experience. I can’t seem to find a way to watch the regular HD versions of these channels.

EDIT: never mind - I see in the Nov. 8 thread that R&D is working on this feature. Looking forward to seeing 4k content if/when the RDU area has that available. Hopefully that’s not measured in years!

Thanks!

nickk
Silicondust
Posts: 16226
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2004 9:39 am
x 73

Re: ATSC 3.0: Raleigh/Durham

Post by nickk »

Crash*N*Burn wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 5:56 am Ahhh that would explain it.... Though generally speaking I've not had good luck with windows store version of application install (professionally) which is why I tend to shy away from that route. Still begs the question why isn't the version on SD's website newer or better????
The HDHomeRun Windows Software on our website includes the latest Windows 10 app.

The Microsoft app store provides the latest version of the Windows 10 app - currently release date 10/21/2017.
The HDHomeRun Windows Software provides the Windows 10 app as at the date the installer was build - currently release date 10/30/2017.
Crash*N*Burn wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 3:21 pm .... Or SD fixes the tuner to show atsc3.0 channels on a separate virtual channel and allow atsc1.0 channels to be on the standard channels.
We are working on this exact feature... look for a new software and firmware update coming out.
Crash*N*Burn wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 3:21 pm Also wth is with 17.1, the video looks like it's being squished, is that source or the SD tuner???
From the screenshots that is an interlaced channel - most likely 1080i.
The HDHomeRun app makes use of the platforms HEVC hardware acceleration by passing the HEVC video to the hardware to decode.
We are seeing a number of platforms have problems with interlaced HEVC content... as we find platform issues we reach out to the platform vendor and provide test cases.
VLC has the same problem. There is an open bug report.
Crash*N*Burn wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 6:35 am So it's a problem with the hd home run software from the ms store, but you can't see or hear the channel unless you use the version from the ms store to get the HEVC addon from the developer to see or hear the channel, got it.
The first time you tune an HEVC channel the app will automatically prompt you to install the Microsoft HEVC addon needed to play HEVC content. This is the same way Microsoft's own media player works and the approach recommened by Microsoft.

Nick

Crash*N*Burn
Posts: 25
Joined: Sat Apr 25, 2020 8:42 pm
x 1

Re: ATSC 3.0: Raleigh/Durham

Post by Crash*N*Burn »

nickk wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 8:15 pm
Crash*N*Burn wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 5:56 am Ahhh that would explain it.... Though generally speaking I've not had good luck with windows store version of application install (professionally) which is why I tend to shy away from that route. Still begs the question why isn't the version on SD's website newer or better????
The HDHomeRun Windows Software on our website includes the latest Windows 10 app.
The Microsoft app store provides the latest version of the Windows 10 app - currently release date 10/21/2017.
The HDHomeRun Windows Software provides the Windows 10 app as at the date the installer was build - currently release date 10/30/2017.
That's not the experienced I had which is why I ended up at the forums in the first place. Software, Firmware, Reboot. I did download the software from the SD website not more then 30 mins prior to my first post when someone pointed out to use the Windows Store version ( AND I HATE using windows store for MULTIPLE reasons) to get the HEVC prompt, which it did and fixed my Win10 play issues.

nickk wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 8:15 pm
Crash*N*Burn wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 3:21 pm .... Or SD fixes the tuner to show atsc3.0 channels on a separate virtual channel and allow atsc1.0 channels to be on the standard channels.
We are working on this exact feature... look for a new software and firmware update coming out.
AWESOME, that fixed 95% of the issues I have with the marketing and selling to the public masses. PEOPLE hate issues installing anything new. Plug it in and it should work. The more technical of the population understand the issue of early adoption, we choose that path.
nickk wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 8:15 pm
Crash*N*Burn wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 3:21 pm Also wth is with 17.1, the video looks like it's being squished, is that source or the SD tuner???
From the screenshots that is an interlaced channel - most likely 1080i.
The HDHomeRun app makes use of the platforms HEVC hardware acceleration by passing the HEVC video to the hardware to decode.
We are seeing a number of platforms have problems with interlaced HEVC content... as we find platform issues we reach out to the platform vendor and provide test cases.
VLC has the same problem. There is an open bug report.
And the feature that you are currently working will help in that manner and time will fix others as atsc3.0 matures
nickk wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 8:15 pm
Crash*N*Burn wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 6:35 am So it's a problem with the hd home run software from the ms store, but you can't see or hear the channel unless you use the version from the ms store to get the HEVC addon from the developer to see or hear the channel, got it.
The first time you tune an HEVC channel the app will automatically prompt you to install the Microsoft HEVC addon needed to play HEVC content. This is the same way Microsoft's own media player works and the approach recommened by Microsoft.

Nick

New platform, new issues, bleeding edge.... I understand.

Having the ability in the firmware/Software to virtually sperate atsc1.0 channels from atsc3.0 would have gone a long way in allowing the early adopters to beta test this product easier.

krv
Posts: 20
Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2020 12:13 pm
x 9

Re: ATSC 3.0: Raleigh/Durham

Post by krv »

grommet wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:22 pm Looking forward to seeing 4k content if/when the RDU area has that available. Hopefully that’s not measured in years!
WRAL should be live within the next two weeks or so, they broadcast the Olympics in a 4k ATSC 3.0 test in 2016 and 2018. Hopefully they will repeat that next summer. I would expect station to start/test 4k broadcasts with big national events that are going to be recorded in 4k, Superbowl, Olympics, World Series etc. It might be awhile before we see the nightly local news in 4k.

tbarnett67
Posts: 1
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:56 pm

Re: ATSC 3.0: Raleigh/Durham

Post by tbarnett67 »

I got the new HDHomeRun CONNECT 4K today and updated to the 20201030 firmware. No sound on the HD channels through my brand new Nvidia Shield.

Works fine on my Win10 PC using the app, after I installed the MS HEVC app. Channel 17.1 is stretched. The HEVC channels in the HDHomeRun app have no sound on my Samsung S9.

Crash*N*Burn
Posts: 25
Joined: Sat Apr 25, 2020 8:42 pm
x 1

Re: ATSC 3.0: Raleigh/Durham

Post by Crash*N*Burn »

Not sure the best place to post this but, I wanted to try out something, not sure if it means anything.

I have an old (5-6 year old) Zotac ZBOX-MA320 (A4-5000 with Radeon 8330 GPU) 8GB ddr3 1800 RAM and 500GB SSD, and wanted to see if I could get the HEVC channels to display and have audio on this device. I install windows 10 2Hxx on it, installed the SD App from the MS Store and the HEVC codec when I tried to tune to a ATSC 3.0 channel, once installed, I shut down the app, restarted the app, tuned to Channel 11.1 (and all the other HEVC channels) and got both video and audio once I installed the HEVC codec.

So, this 5+ yo box was able to properly display and have audio, but the 2015 Nvidia Shield can't without have a Dolby Atmos soundbar?


PS: If I run my TV channels thru Kodi, I can still play the video for HEVC, but there is no sound. So its a limit of the software and the codecs access to other apps on the system and NOT the hardware.

PSS: Using the SD add-on app for Kodi play video but no audio.
Last edited by Crash*N*Burn on Tue Nov 24, 2020 8:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

krv
Posts: 20
Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2020 12:13 pm
x 9

Re: ATSC 3.0: Raleigh/Durham

Post by krv »

tbarnett67 wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:07 pm I got the new HDHomeRun CONNECT 4K today and updated to the 20201030 firmware. No sound on the HD channels through my brand new Nvidia Shield.

Works fine on my Win10 PC using the app, after I installed the MS HEVC app. Channel 17.1 is stretched. The HEVC channels in the HDHomeRun app have no sound on my Samsung S9.
The sound situation is a matter of whether the system and/or software you are using has a codec that supports Dolby AC-4. If if does you have sound, if it doesn't you don't.

The issue with 17.1 is that it is being broadcast with in 1080i and most HEVC decoders don't expect interlaced video so they render it incorrectly. 17.1 looks fine on my Roku TV (but no sound).

Crash*N*Burn
Posts: 25
Joined: Sat Apr 25, 2020 8:42 pm
x 1

Re: ATSC 3.0: Raleigh/Durham

Post by Crash*N*Burn »

krv wrote: Tue Nov 24, 2020 8:15 am
tbarnett67 wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:07 pm I got the new HDHomeRun CONNECT 4K today and updated to the 20201030 firmware. No sound on the HD channels through my brand new Nvidia Shield.

Works fine on my Win10 PC using the app, after I installed the MS HEVC app. Channel 17.1 is stretched. The HEVC channels in the HDHomeRun app have no sound on my Samsung S9.
The sound situation is a matter of whether the system and/or software you are using has a codec that supports Dolby AC-4. If if does you have sound, if it doesn't you don't.

The issue with 17.1 is that it is being broadcast with in 1080i and most HEVC decoders don't expect interlaced video so they render it incorrectly. 17.1 looks fine on my Roku TV (but no sound).
If there a flag in the meta stream that indicates it as i or p ? And instead of assuming it p and decoding ir wrong look for the flag and decode it correctly?

kyl416
Posts: 56
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2014 12:09 pm
Device ID: 1080DB11
Location: Tobyhanna, PA
x 4
Contact:

Re: ATSC 3.0: Raleigh/Durham

Post by kyl416 »

It's a little more complicated, each field is delivered as seperate half height video streams (i.e. 1920x540p for 1080i video or 720x240p, 704x240p or 640x240p for 480i video). There's additional embedded metadata that needs to be parsed by the codec to combine them into an interlaced image with the full height.

If you want a more technical explanation about how interlaced HEVC works, check the comments in FFmpeg's bug report:
https://trac.ffmpeg.org/ticket/4141

Crash*N*Burn
Posts: 25
Joined: Sat Apr 25, 2020 8:42 pm
x 1

Re: ATSC 3.0: Raleigh/Durham

Post by Crash*N*Burn »

Image
This is what the channel scan looks like as it starts the process, if you could force it to keep ALL the channels, we could then X out the HEVC or none HEVC channels ourselves!

Image
This is what it looks like as its about to finish the scan. The tool added the red X itself. I tried to remove the red X in hopes it would allow those channels to stay in the list, its does not.

Image
As you can see after the scan completes, and HEVC channel with trump the HD version of the channel (ATSC 3.0 vs ATSC 1.0)



https://imgur.com/a/ZeTKRFk

Post Reply