Is the PRIME 6 soon to be released?

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jasonl
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Re: Is the PRIME 6 soon to be released?

Post by jasonl »

rpcameron wrote: Mon Oct 19, 2020 8:43 pm Thank you for the reply, Ned. However, it does beg the question of what additional hardware—or other—requirements are required for DRM recording and playback that the current HDHR software clients cannot meet; and why does a SiliconDust provided hardware recording device differ from a third-party device for recording?

My current understanding is that a DRM-flagged broadcast is encrypted in the same way, regardless of whether it is streamed live or recorded; the only difference is the in-between. For a live broadcast, there is no interim, and it is decoded upon receipt by the viewer. For a recording, the encrypted stream is saved to disk in situ, and decoded on demand upon playback by the client. Since I haven't deeply read the CableLabs requirements, I would like to know why my server/NAS drive is different from your network drive in the chain of recording and decoding DRM broadcasts.
The explanation for that is pretty simple. The DVR has to be able to store the decryption keys securely. That's a lot easier to do on a device the DVR controls. I don't know anything about what the actual plans are for how it would work, but one way it could be done would be to use Linux's builtin filesystem encryption to create a container file on the DVR drive and store the keys in that. Most ARM SoCs have some sort of facility for securely storing limited amounts of data that can only be accessed by a trusted system, and we already know that the HDHomeRun firmware is digitally signed and the device will refuse to even boot if the signature check fails, so that could be used to store the key for the filesystem. None of that control exists on a random PC or NAS.

Ken.F
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Re: Is the PRIME 6 soon to be released?

Post by Ken.F »

NedS wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 4:14 pm There were a few instances of them even doing 4K H.265/HEVC over CableCARD with Verizon FIOS, and I think we got it to work (after a few tweaks/updates, IIRC).
FIOS currently has the World Series games listed to air on their 4K channel (1498).

andrewjs18
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Re: Is the PRIME 6 soon to be released?

Post by andrewjs18 »

disappointing to hear that the prime 6 is dead as my ceton 4 is aging and probably in need of replacement sooner rather than later.

that said, the cost of buying 2 prime 3 tuners plus renting 2 cablecards probably isn't worth the cost for me.

Csteinmeyer2000
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Re: Is the PRIME 6 soon to be released?

Post by Csteinmeyer2000 »

Just when I think 2020 can’t get any worse...SURPRISE!
Thanks for all the hard work SD. Been running the prime for years (a Ceton convert). Hope it has a few years left.
I’m excited to try out the new Quatro 4K I just got (as a Kickstarter supporter). Just hoping Columbus Ohio gets ATSC 3 soon.

My future efforts will be the following:
1. Convince my wife cable TV is a want, not a need, and go 100% OTA with SD DVR (or Plex w/ grid view) plus some streaming services to fill in some gaps.
Since this is about as likely to happen as Time Warner (Now Spectrum) actually acting like they know what a Cable card is when I call, or SD still releasing a Prime 6, I will also....

2. Continue to pray DRM DVR support is released soon (Kickstarter supported this too) even if I have to buy SD DVR hardware. Then live out the rest of the limited life of the Prime 3....just hoping I’m never forced by wife to allow a cable provider piece of hardware into my house.

sbm7815
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Re: Is the PRIME 6 soon to be released?

Post by sbm7815 »

Hey Ned, can we get a rundown on what happened with the Prime 6 development? I know the latest FCC rule change put the final nail in the coffin, but why was it so heavily delayed? It feels like 2018-2019 was a critical window of opportunity for the Prime 6 release and its chances began to diminish after this was missed. Would there be any consideration of doing a kickstarter like your other products? I imagine there's still high demand for this device. I personally was planning to purchase a couple of them.

I'm also glad to hear that you found a bunch of SoC's for the Prime 3. Any idea when those are coming and where we would be able to purchase them?

drphil02
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Re: Is the PRIME 6 soon to be released?

Post by drphil02 »

one can hope however I'm starting to loose hope. There is a whole community of users out here that don't want to cut the cord, but want to change how the content is delivered. I feel like Silicon Dust is trying to kill this product line off as they keep developing new product on the OTA side. Please don't EOL this product!!!

manicslothpdx
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Re: Is the PRIME 6 soon to be released?

Post by manicslothpdx »

I don't see how that'd be in their best interested since SiliconDust is in the business of selling products. Having a solution for each TV viewing use case means selling more products. The PRIME devices don't cannibalize sales of their other products, they compliment them. I speculate, but I think it was a government or standards organization that kept the PRIME 6 from being released, not a desire on Silicon Dust's part to kill off the product via attrition.

breezytm
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Re: Is the PRIME 6 soon to be released?

Post by breezytm »

I am just at a loss for words here. However, I do have one question though, why not run the prime 6 through a kickstarter and see if people really want it. If they do, then build it. Shoot, I want one.

But that would have to be with a certain expectation that this would not be DRM V2 where we wait for years and still barely get what we were promised or get what was promised just not the way we want it. We still can't record DRM and we hate the app UI. I must say though the app does work pretty well but damn can we get what we want. I participated in the kickstarted but don't use the DVR since my channels are DRM so.

NedS
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Re: Is the PRIME 6 soon to be released?

Post by NedS »

breezytm wrote: Sat Oct 24, 2020 1:16 pm I am just at a loss for words here. However, I do have one question though, why not run the prime 6 through a kickstarter and see if people really want it. If they do, then build it. Shoot, I want one.

But that would have to be with a certain expectation that this would not be DRM V2 where we wait for years and still barely get what we were promised or get what was promised just not the way we want it. We still can't record DRM and we hate the app UI. I must say though the app does work pretty well but damn can we get what we want. I participated in the kickstarted but don't use the DVR since my channels are DRM so.
Given the delays seen on the DRM promise of the DVR kickstarter, we are very reluctant to do any kind of Kickstarter or pre-order unless we have something ready-to-go. While the PRIME6 is basically "there", there are a few engineering tweaks that need to be made, and a certification process that would cost more than any Kickstarter we have done before. It's a gamble, and given how 2020 is going, we feel it better to take only safer bets. We've managed to do very well in 2020, actually better than we did in 2019, sales wise (thanks to the ATSC 3.0, in large part), but it introduces a lot of variables, and 2020 is not done with us just yet.

I guess the takeaway from this is that there is no one single cause for the PRIME6's cancelation. We tended to be overly optimistic about ETAs, didn't expect to have to design a new CableCARD product twice, balancing the needs of the entire company, moving the main office to a new state, COVID-19, the FCC decision, the massive cost of certification, and various other factors that I can't go into detail about. We're all pretty bummed about the PRIME6 not getting to see the light of day, and this was a very hard decision to make.

3ton
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Re: Is the PRIME 6 soon to be released?

Post by 3ton »

NedS wrote: Sat Oct 24, 2020 3:16 pm
breezytm wrote: Sat Oct 24, 2020 1:16 pm I am just at a loss for words here. However, I do have one question though, why not run the prime 6 through a kickstarter and see if people really want it. If they do, then build it. Shoot, I want one.

But that would have to be with a certain expectation that this would not be DRM V2 where we wait for years and still barely get what we were promised or get what was promised just not the way we want it. We still can't record DRM and we hate the app UI. I must say though the app does work pretty well but damn can we get what we want. I participated in the kickstarted but don't use the DVR since my channels are DRM so.
Given the delays seen on the DRM promise of the DVR kickstarter, we are very reluctant to do any kind of Kickstarter or pre-order unless we have something ready-to-go. While the PRIME6 is basically "there", there are a few engineering tweaks that need to be made, and a certification process that would cost more than any Kickstarter we have done before. It's a gamble, and given how 2020 is going, we feel it better to take only safer bets. We've managed to do very well in 2020, actually better than we did in 2019, sales wise (thanks to the ATSC 3.0, in large part), but it introduces a lot of variables, and 2020 is not done with us just yet.

I guess the takeaway from this is that there is no one single cause for the PRIME6's cancelation. We tended to be overly optimistic about ETAs, didn't expect to have to design a new CableCARD product twice, balancing the needs of the entire company, moving the main office to a new state, COVID-19, the FCC decision, the massive cost of certification, and various other factors that I can't go into detail about. We're all pretty bummed about the PRIME6 not getting to see the light of day, and this was a very hard decision to make.
Does the FCC Decision remove the need for certification? Otherwise can you make a device that does not need certification?

kyl416
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Re: Is the PRIME 6 soon to be released?

Post by kyl416 »

The FCC decision removes the requirement for cable providers to offer CableCards.

NedS
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Re: Is the PRIME 6 soon to be released?

Post by NedS »

Unfortunately, it would not legal to circumvent a DRM system, and bypassing certification for CableCARD would most certainly be seen as such.

breezytm
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Re: Is the PRIME 6 soon to be released?

Post by breezytm »

Okay then let me say this. How about one of these two options

1) SD figure out how much it would cost to get the device certified and then create the kickstarter with that figure and let the users determine their fate. I mean long after WMC reached end of support, we thought it was going to be a blow to the market but users went to work and still keeping it alive. It may be on life support but its still very much alive. The FCC's decision will not stop me from getting a cablecard and I don't know how would the cable companies stop existing subscribers from using one. Besides I don't have the data but I don't believe this was a huge market to begin with yet it is still a market for the very few and I don't see them leaving. I could go to YoutubeTV but I would lose the flexibility of HDHomerun network tuners. Integration like Plex, Emby, Kodi, Live Channels and a few others. Not going to happen. I've had my HDHomeRun for years now and I am a happy customer. I have installed HDHomeRun in 4 different homes thus far and everyone is happy.
Also provide some sort of incentive like 3 years of free recording for participating or Android TV Live Channel recording support as a bonus. I really want a 6 tuner prime with built-in record engine and an empty hard drive slot. I am willing to pay $450 for that and I most likely would get two. That would allow you guys to release the tuner and the DRM record engine since you control the OS and the hardware it runs on. As a matter of fact you could even decide not to support DRM recording on other hardware like a NAS or PC and I can guarantee you people would still buy your hardware for that purpose. How do I know? Well that's Apple business model. People want what they want and they'll pay for it. Specially when they don't have options.

2) Something similar to TVE. Even if the prime is completely dead we can still access cable channels.

linkjy
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Re: Is the PRIME 6 soon to be released?

Post by linkjy »

I would be willing to throw $250-300 at a kickstarter for prime 6. But I totally get going with the safer play.

EddieP
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Re: Is the PRIME 6 soon to be released?

Post by EddieP »

linkjy wrote: Sun Oct 25, 2020 7:04 am I would be willing to throw $250-300 at a kickstarter for prime 6. But I totally get going with the safer play.
Cable cards are going the way of the Analog broadcasts.

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