Thread split - shspvr

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shspvr
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Thread split - shspvr

Post by shspvr » Sat Jun 15, 2019 7:26 am

The only thing I'm disappoint in is can't be a true cord cutter device because it can't pull PSIP data (EPG data)

shspvr
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Re: Servio and Scribe

Post by shspvr » Sat Jun 15, 2019 8:00 pm

signcarver wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 7:28 pm
They have said it was upgradable...the issue is 7mm height so most above 2TB won't work (supposedly there is a 7mm 4TB drive but i haven't seen it on stock (or at least at a decent price, and i generally don't like ssd's for dvr and there supposedly are some larger ssd's)

The info for such was at viewtopic.php?f=15&t=70590&p=336682

Which now says it got moved to the "info" pages however the link there is broke but one can click the navigation menu for the servio/scribe there.
Yes there are 7mm 4TB drive but it only available as an SSD which cost over $500 and far I know there are no 2.5" 7mm 4TB mechanical form factor drives that been made, all are 15mm form factor up to 5TB and that where it stop at and nothing new in last 4 year not even update revision so do get you hope up for one.
That another major disappointment with both the SCRIBE and SERVIO

shspvr
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Re: Servio and Scribe

Post by shspvr » Sat Jun 15, 2019 8:33 pm

nickk wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 8:11 pm
The SERVIO has a 2TB drive which would work in a SCRIBE, though the recommended approach is to add a SERVIO - that way you get 1TB+2TB = 3TB with no messing around.

It looks like NewEgg has 2TB 7mm drives but they are laptop drives rather than video drives.

Nick
There is no such thing as video drives

gtb
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Re: Servio and Scribe

Post by gtb » Sat Jun 15, 2019 8:51 pm

shspvr wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 8:33 pm
There is no such thing as video drives
Well, you can argue that with Seagate, with their ST1000LV000 and ST2000LV000 drives (under the SkyHawk label) which are sold as video surveillance drives. And WD has their AV-25 drives (renamed to WD AV 2.5 inch) for up to 1TB.

Last I looked most of the 2.5" video surveillance drives were sold in bulk packs to OEMs (which, of course, SD is), and have mostly disappeared from the respective manufacturers websites for consumers (they were never really sold to consumers in the first place; I am not going to do an extensive check, but I doubt many (if any) sources actually have them in stock for consumer purchase in unit quantities).
Last edited by gtb on Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

gtb
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Re: Servio and Scribe

Post by gtb » Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:01 pm

shspvr wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 7:26 am
The only thing I'm disappoint in is can't be a true cord cutter device because it can't pull PSIP data (EPG data)
Realistically, at least in the US, PSIP data is just not sufficient for proper DVR operations due to its extremely limited time frame (9-12 hours are required, with most broadcasters stopping at that, with the occasional exceptions (I think I recall reports of some PBS stations being longer)). Most people want more than a VCR with a future time to start to record, and want to see guide data more than half a day to schedule their recordings. And many people also want more "metadata" than what the PSIP provides.

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Re: Servio and Scribe

Post by nickk » Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:46 pm

shspvr wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 8:33 pm
There is no such thing as video drives
SERVIO uses a 2TB Seagate ST2000VT000-1RE174 drive specifically designed for DVR use.

Seagate labels DVR spec drives "Video". WDC labels DVR spec drives "AV'.

Nick

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Re: Servio and Scribe

Post by nickk » Sat Jun 15, 2019 10:24 pm

shspvr wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 8:00 pm
Yes there are 7mm 4TB drive but it only available as an SSD which cost over $500
Fun fact - we used SSDs quite a bit in development.
shspvr wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 8:00 pm
and far I know there are no 2.5" 7mm 4TB mechanical form factor drives that been made, all are 15mm form factor up to 5TB[/b] and that where it stop at and nothing new in last 4 year not even update revision so do get you hope up for one.
That another major disappointment with both the SCRIBE and SERVIO
The highest capacity Video/AV drives suitable for DVR use are the drives we are using - 2TB and 7mm tall.

The high capacity 4-5TB 2.5" drives available today are laptop/external USB drives.

If Seagate or WDC starts making a 4-5TB Video/AV drive we can do a taller case to support them. The electronics inside are designed to support any height but the case needs to match the drive height for assembly and optimal heat transfer.

shspvr
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Re: Servio and Scribe

Post by shspvr » Sun Jun 16, 2019 7:20 am

gtb wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 8:51 pm
Well, you can argue that with Seagate, with their ST1000LV000 and ST2000LV000 drives (under the SkyHawk label) which are sold as video surveillance drives. And WD has their AV-25 drives (renamed to WD AV 2.5 inch) for up to 1TB.

Last I looked most of the 2.5" video surveillance drives were sold in bulk packs to OEMs (which, of course, SD is), and have mostly disappeared from the respective manufacturers websites for consumers (they were never really sold to consumers in the first place; I am not going to do an extensive check, but I doubt many (if any) sources actually have them in stock for consumer purchase in unit quantities).
Ho pleases don't make LoL to much, both WD and Seagate love pulling everyone leg with Market BS
Better look again bubby all the SkyHawk drive are only available 3.5" not 2.5" and only BarraCuda, BarraCuda Pro, FireCuda and Exos are available in 2.5".
gtb wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:01 pm
Realistically, at least in the US, PSIP data is just not sufficient for proper DVR operations due to its extremely limited time frame (9-12 hours are required, with most broadcasters stopping at that, with the occasional exceptions (I think I recall reports of some PBS stations being longer)). Most people want more than a VCR with a future time to start to record, and want to see guide data more than half a day to schedule their recordings. And many people also want more "metadata" than what the PSIP provides.
Really I say BS one of my Aunt who being run SageTV and who has no internet has been using it just fine for last 8 years and one my friends who has NextPVR up in a cabin is working just find for last 5 years it to has no internet.
nickk wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:46 pm
SERVIO uses a 2TB Seagate ST2000VT000-1RE174 drive specifically designed for DVR use.

Seagate labels DVR spec drives "Video". WDC labels DVR spec drives "AV'.

Nick
That were you are wrong Nick
Consumer, Enterprise, NAS, Surveillance of the 4 drive type will have essentially the same hardware, The main difference is the firmware installed on the drive. This firmware changes the behavior of the drive. Like telling it when to park the read write heads, how to organize the data stream, how to deal with read or write faults and additional sensors solder on know as Rotational Vibration (RV) Sensors which only useful if running boat load of other drive in same case or on a server rack.
I have used every type drive that ever been made from RLL, MFM, IDE, EIDE, SATA and SCSI over last 35 years and even a few so called Enterprise drive, but I have not try are Fibre Channel and SASI
Heck even BackBlaze own Storage Report has prove this with reg Seagate Consumer Drives are just as solid, sure you going get some drive that will failed no matter what type it is.
My avg harddrive life span of mine has been 5+ year I have had one that has gone as long 8 years a 1TB seagate in fact it just kicking the bucket back in dec of last year with my PC DVR
I know people that are running FreeNAS and even Raid Array and are using just reg Consumer drive.

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Re: Thread split - shspvr

Post by nickk » Sun Jun 16, 2019 8:50 am

Notes on upgrading or replacing the internal hard drive of a SCRIBE or SERVIO can be found here:
https://info.hdhomerun.com/info/scribe_ ... cing_drive

Nick

shspvr
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Re: Thread split - shspvr

Post by shspvr » Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:06 pm

Wow they split thread :o

ebo
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Re: Thread split - shspvr

Post by ebo » Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:21 am

Of the differences shspvr noted between drives optimized for computers and for A/V, the most important is how they handle read errors. When a computer drive encounters a read error, it keeps rereading the same sectors, hoping for success,* until it finally gives up and returns an error code. That causes a long, maybe permanent pause in A/V playback. When an A/V drive encounters an error, it just keeps going, resulting in a momentary glitch. And that's what the viewer prefers. Same as watching OTA live: if there's a momentary loss of signal, you want the receiver to recover as quickly as possible, not just quit.

My first digital receiver was an LG DVR. It came with a drive designed for A/V. When I filled it because I was recording faster than watching (a problem I still have), I replaced it with a computer drive. That worked fine until I finally retired the DVR for the much more versatile HDHR.

*So, by definition, a computer drive is insane.

shspvr
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Re: Thread split - shspvr

Post by shspvr » Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:20 pm

ebo wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:21 am
Of the differences shspvr noted between drives optimized for computers and for A/V, the most important is how they handle read errors. When a computer drive encounters a read error, it keeps rereading the same sectors, hoping for success,* until it finally gives up and returns an error code. That causes a long, maybe permanent pause in A/V playback. When an A/V drive encounters an error, it just keeps going, resulting in a momentary glitch. And that's what the viewer prefers. Same as watching OTA live: if there's a momentary loss of signal, you want the receiver to recover as quickly as possible, not just quit.

My first digital receiver was an LG DVR. It came with a drive designed for A/V. When I filled it because I was recording faster than watching (a problem I still have), I replaced it with a computer drive. That worked fine until I finally retired the DVR for the much more versatile HDHR.

*So, by definition, a computer drive is insane.
In old days that was true about read errors but now days that a thing of pass even non consumer drivers will run in to sectors problem all drive now auto mark a sectors as bad if can't read it as long it not bad head.

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Re: Thread split - shspvr

Post by jasonl » Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:30 pm

It's not whether the sector gets marked as bad, it's how long it takes the drive to decide that it's bad. Normal consumer drive firmware prioritizes recovery of data over response time, so it will re-read the bad sector multiple times to try to return anything, even if it deadlocks the system for 10 seconds before it gives up and marks the sector bad internally and allocates one of the spare sectors in its place. Video drives will give up a lot sooner, maintaining normal functionality at the expense of not having any chance of recovering whatever was there, which isn't a big deal because it just ends up as a minor blip in a TV or security camera recording, while your desktop hard drive probably has more important things stored on it, like personal documents or vital OS files.

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