Add HDHomerun to FireTV Live TV Sources

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nickk
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Re: Add HDHomerun to FireTV Live TV Sources

Post by nickk » Fri May 10, 2019 8:39 am

reggie14 wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 8:31 am
Out of curiosity, what do you mean by this? My understanding of the CableLabs/OCUR requirements is that they basically come down to "use a CableLabs-approved DRM system" once you're outside the OCUR device.

While it's probably a bit simplified, the main requirement on FireTV and other devices is to support an approved DRM system, and make whatever interfaces are necessary to use it available to application developers. Right? Or is there some other critical detail that I'm missing?

I think the issue is that FireTV devices don't seem to support DTCP-IP, which appears to be the one and only DRM system you are supporting with your apps. They do support other DRM systems- PlayReady and Widevine. Though, I see FireTV only supports PlayReady on the video stream, not the audio stream, so that presumably means you wouldn't be able to use PlayReady.
There are two link protection schemes approved by CableLabs for OCUR devices - WMDRM10 and DTCP-IP.

gtb
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Re: Add HDHomerun to FireTV Live TV Sources

Post by gtb » Fri May 10, 2019 8:59 am

reggie14 wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 8:31 am
While it's probably a bit simplified, the main requirement on FireTV and other devices is to support an approved DRM system, and make whatever interfaces are necessary to use it available to application developers. Right?
Discussed (in ad infinitum) previously, you should re-read the past discussions. The understanding is that, In essence, Amazon does not provide an API/capability that states that the device can provide a secure content path (devices which have the Play Store (i.e. Google certified devices) have a specific API to do so, but Amazons variant of Android does not provide that assertion). Adding such an API capability is well within Amazon's competency, but they have not done so (the guess is that they likely see it as a niche requirement). The ball is in Amazon's court to decide to provide needed capability. You can, of course, try to make the case directly to Amazon as their customer that they should do the right thing. See the previous discussion about Amazon's likely motives.

rrussis82
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Re: Add HDHomerun to FireTV Live TV Sources

Post by rrussis82 » Fri May 10, 2019 9:43 am

gtb wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 6:44 pm
rrussis82 wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 5:41 pm
Maybe, just maybe, if enough Amazon customers contact them ....
You should understand your lack of power against the megacorp. Amazon does not care about idle threats (and most such threats are idle, and everyone knows that). You need actual cancellations with this being the one and only one reason. Expect the numbers of individuals to matter to Amazon to be well into six figures(*). Do you have that many friends willing to permanently terminate all association with Amazon?


(*) On the other hand, if you control your businesses cloud buying decision, informing Amazon you will be moving your billion dollar services contract to Azure or Google Cloud next year because they refuse to whitelist your personal favorite apps, that might make an impression (even if it is a completely different part of the business).
GTB, my point was for him to try and then let him realize how little Amazon cares about him being a customer or not.

nateb
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Re: Add HDHomerun to FireTV Live TV Sources

Post by nateb » Fri May 10, 2019 9:56 am

reggie14 wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 8:31 am

Out of curiosity, what do you mean by this? My understanding of the CableLabs/OCUR requirements is that they basically come down to "use a CableLabs-approved DRM system" once you're outside the OCUR device.
As with all things DRM, I'm not really sure into how much detail about why one service is considered compliant and another isn't I can go. The simple answer is that Amazon devices are not locked down enough, the folks at Amazon know what the issue is, and until they fix it, our hands are tied for supporting them.

john7259
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Re: Add HDHomerun to FireTV Live TV Sources

Post by john7259 » Fri May 10, 2019 10:28 am

The frustrating thing for me is the question that will not be answered.....what happened?
FireTV supported DRM. I made buying decisions based on that. All of a sudden, the support was removed without any prior communication by SD.

If it's non-compliant, how did it ever get certified? Was the support really a mistake and in violation of the requirements? Did something change by either SD or Amazon to make it non-compliant?

I fully understand/accept the current state, but this could be a case study on how not to do customer support (and why I won't spend any more dollars/time chasing a cable/DRM solution).

rrussis82
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Re: Add HDHomerun to FireTV Live TV Sources

Post by rrussis82 » Fri May 10, 2019 12:22 pm

john7259 wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 10:28 am
The frustrating thing for me is the question that will not be answered.....what happened?
FireTV supported DRM. I made buying decisions based on that. All of a sudden, the support was removed without any prior communication by SD.

If it's non-compliant, how did it ever get certified? Was the support really a mistake and in violation of the requirements? Did something change by either SD or Amazon to make it non-compliant?

I fully understand/accept the current state, but this could be a case study on how not to do customer support (and why I won't spend any more dollars/time chasing a cable/DRM solution).
You just aren't getting it..... SD can be fined out of business if it is not done right. Amazon is not secure enough. whether it was before or not is irrelevant. Green APP or any other color APP not available any longer is not relevant. You purchased Amazon because it was the cheapest way possible. Spend another 30 bucks on a MiBox Android TV or a Jetstream. It has everything FireTV can do, starting in June even Amazon Prime video. Those handle DRM. It will not break the bank if you get one. It is not SDs fault Amazon won't support them and yet your mad at SD for Amazon's misconduct.

*FireTV is a forked version of AndroidTV anyways just without the security measures needed. Any APK available on Amazon Store can be sideloaded on AndroidTV and vice versa.

rrussis82
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Re: Add HDHomerun to FireTV Live TV Sources

Post by rrussis82 » Fri May 10, 2019 12:36 pm

Years ago there was one model Samsung TV that had the HDHomerun APP. Samsung stopped the APP. Little later Samsung had RUI for DirectTV and SD made a few changes to allow their stream through RUI. Samsung blocked it. All these things may have been a thought before being blocked for a reason to buy Samsung TVs. Its not SDs fault it happened. You cannot be mad at SD for other manufacturers decisions. and it is the same case with Amazon FireTV, You can't blame SD if Amazon does not want to make their devices secure enough for CableLabs DRM. Amazon even pulled the APP from the Amazon Store to force SD to do something they really did not want to and would not approve it back in until SD complied. That should tell you how shady FireTV is being.

SD makes a competing product to Amazon, even if Amazons product is inferior, I do not see Amazon securing their OS to allow a competing company's product to work on their system. This is their way of stamping out the competition like they did with the Mom and Pop stores

reggie14
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Re: Add HDHomerun to FireTV Live TV Sources

Post by reggie14 » Fri May 10, 2019 1:36 pm

gtb wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 8:59 am
reggie14 wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 8:31 am
While it's probably a bit simplified, the main requirement on FireTV and other devices is to support an approved DRM system, and make whatever interfaces are necessary to use it available to application developers. Right?
Discussed (in ad infinitum) previously, you should re-read the past discussions. The understanding is that, In essence, Amazon does not provide an API/capability that states that the device can provide a secure content path (devices which have the Play Store (i.e. Google certified devices) have a specific API to do so, but Amazons variant of Android does not provide that assertion). Adding such an API capability is well within Amazon's competency, but they have not done so (the guess is that they likely see it as a niche requirement). The ball is in Amazon's court to decide to provide needed capability. You can, of course, try to make the case directly to Amazon as their customer that they should do the right thing. See the previous discussion about Amazon's likely motives.
While the protected path piece sounds familiar, even starting with those terms doesn't help me find anything relevant on the forum.

The closed nature of CableLabs certification and the licensing terms of the DRM schemes seem to make it difficult to discuss this. This things end up portrayed as CableLabs requirements, but as far as I could tell from the OCUR requirements, everything seems out-of-scope for them once you're out of the OCUR tuner and protected by an approved DRM scheme.

So, I don't really understand what and where the problems are. I recognize it doesn't really matter, so it's more of a curiosity for me. Is the issue that SiliconDust is licensing DTCP, and ultimately are unable to meet the DTCP requirements on the Fire platform? Or does CableLabs really assert more control outside the OCUR devices themselves?

And I thought PlayReady was also approved, since I thought WMC used a combination of WMDRM and PlayReady. Is PlayReady being considered on some devices, like Fire devices that seem to have some support for it (though, perhaps not enough)? And while I can't find it now, I seem to recall CableLabs having several approved DRM schemes. It's archaic at this point, but I thought Real Helix was approved at one point. It's too bad Widevine doesn't appear to be approved.

The DRM space looks like a complete mess for smaller companies to work with, unfortunately.

john7259
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Re: Add HDHomerun to FireTV Live TV Sources

Post by john7259 » Fri May 10, 2019 1:37 pm

rrussis82 wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 12:22 pm
You just aren't getting it..... SD can be fined out of business if it is not done right. Amazon is not secure enough. whether it was before or not is irrelevant. Green APP or any other color APP not available any longer is not relevant. You purchased Amazon because it was the cheapest way possible. Spend another 30 bucks on a MiBox Android TV or a Jetstream. It has everything FireTV can do, starting in June even Amazon Prime video. Those handle DRM. It will not break the bank if you get one. It is not SDs fault Amazon won't support them and yet your mad at SD for Amazon's misconduct.

*FireTV is a forked version of AndroidTV anyways just without the security measures needed. Any APK available on Amazon Store can be sideloaded on AndroidTV and vice versa.
No, you aren't getting it. I understand all the implications and the high level technical reasons for the lack of support (although the techie in me would like a bit more detail). What bothers me most is that I didn't get the chance to plan for it. Installing an update that removes existing function without warning is not the way to do things. I can't believe that this was a last minute discovery for SD. Having worked with customers in various roles for many years, I can tell you that the worst thing you can do is lose their trust....

Anyway, this thread has veered too far off the original topic. I hope somehow SD can push things along for LiveTV sources support.

rrussis82
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Re: Add HDHomerun to FireTV Live TV Sources

Post by rrussis82 » Fri May 10, 2019 2:04 pm

john7259 wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 1:37 pm
rrussis82 wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 12:22 pm
You just aren't getting it..... SD can be fined out of business if it is not done right. Amazon is not secure enough. whether it was before or not is irrelevant. Green APP or any other color APP not available any longer is not relevant. You purchased Amazon because it was the cheapest way possible. Spend another 30 bucks on a MiBox Android TV or a Jetstream. It has everything FireTV can do, starting in June even Amazon Prime video. Those handle DRM. It will not break the bank if you get one. It is not SDs fault Amazon won't support them and yet your mad at SD for Amazon's misconduct.

*FireTV is a forked version of AndroidTV anyways just without the security measures needed. Any APK available on Amazon Store can be sideloaded on AndroidTV and vice versa.
No, you aren't getting it. I understand all the implications and the high level technical reasons for the lack of support (although the techie in me would like a bit more detail). What bothers me most is that I didn't get the chance to plan for it. Installing an update that removes existing function without warning is not the way to do things. I can't believe that this was a last minute discovery for SD. Having worked with customers in various roles for many years, I can tell you that the worst thing you can do is lose their trust....

Anyway, this thread has veered too far off the original topic. I hope somehow SD can push things along for LiveTV sources support.
Seriously? The green APP was removed from the "stores" for more than a year before they had to zap it out of existance. it was all over this forum, People were sideloading it to make it last as long as it did! It was all over this forum! Once again it as all over this forum! Then when the approved DRM viewing for Android came out it was announced the green APP was being zapped. Once again it was all over this forum!

plenty of time to plan. Plenty of time to start working on ecosystems that did work (AndroidTV) This has been about a year and a half now? still plenty of time to work on inexpensive ways to watch DRM.

but wait... it's SDs fault....

nickk
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Re: Add HDHomerun to FireTV Live TV Sources

Post by nickk » Fri May 10, 2019 2:10 pm

CableLabs requires WMDRM10 or DTCP-IP (with the optional round trip time verification feature required).

DTLA enforce DTCP-IP requirements.

FireTV devices can be hacked and there isn't a way (at least available to us as an app) to verify the integrity of the device.

john7259
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Re: Add HDHomerun to FireTV Live TV Sources

Post by john7259 » Fri May 10, 2019 3:08 pm

rrussis82 wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 2:04 pm

Seriously?
I remember at the time there was a thread where many users were just as surprised as I was over the loss of FireTV DRM. I don't think things were as quite as clear as you remember. So yes, I think SD could have done a better job with the rollout.

At this point it's academic.....you are entitled to your opinion and I have mine. We both will be making decisions accordingly.

Once again, please let this thread return to its original topic (myself included)....

reggie14
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Re: Add HDHomerun to FireTV Live TV Sources

Post by reggie14 » Fri May 10, 2019 6:05 pm

nickk wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 2:10 pm
CableLabs requires WMDRM10 or DTCP-IP (with the optional round trip time verification feature required).

DTLA enforce DTCP-IP requirements.

FireTV devices can be hacked and there isn't a way (at least available to us as an app) to verify the integrity of the device.
Thanks for indulging me. I know none of this is really relevant; I'm just curious how it works.

Where does device integrity come into this? I've always been curious how DTCP-IP works in your apps. I thought DRM was almost always done at a platform level, rather than being handled directly by the applications, but it seems like you might be doing it in software in your app. If so, is the concern that hacked devices violate the DTLA/DTCP-IP requirements (e.g., perhaps by making it possible to steal keys)?

I don't entirely understand what's unique about FireTV here. For example, Android devices can be hacked, and some of those hacks can fake out SafetyNet checks (particularly if the checks are done on the client).

nickk
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Re: Add HDHomerun to FireTV Live TV Sources

Post by nickk » Fri May 10, 2019 7:40 pm

The HDHomeRun app will not play protected content on an Android device that has been hacked.

ericfredrickson
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Re: Add HDHomerun to FireTV Live TV Sources

Post by ericfredrickson » Sat May 11, 2019 1:25 am

I know I am getting old. The problem here is that DRM exists to begin with. In the name of protecting the rights of the content creators, a complicated system designed to limit the ability of anybody without unlimited funds to participate has been created. In the old days, programs and music were copied and some revenue was lost. But somehow, all these companies thrived anyway. I spend hours and hours dealing with unnecessary uninstalls and reinstalls, communicating with companies, and waiting (coming up on 3 years) for support. Cable companies lobbied congress to make the change to HD. Where I live, that ended over the air reception unless I put up my own anntenna tower to receive it. I used to just hook my tv's up to the cable and be able to view most of what I am paying to see. Now you cannot get a single channel unless you pay for a box or a cable card. My cable cards cost me the same as a box does.

DRM protects the content holders from people who would never pay for content anyway while punishing their customers. The best way to solve this is to lobby congress to either remove DRM or provide additional rights to consumers to force organizations like Cablelabs to really make options besides what the content providers offer easily designed and implemented. It is not SD's fault that the requirements are so stringent that their very existence is threatened by a simple error or worse, a change made in another companies technology that opens them up to the ridiculous fines that could be imposed. Unfortunately, the people who are reading this are a tiny minority in this country. Most people just subscribe to whatever cable system is available, grumble a little bit, and put up with this.

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