Almost 4 years since Kickstarter and still waiting for DRM recording.

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markweir
Posts: 39
Joined: Wed May 27, 2015 8:56 am

Almost 4 years since Kickstarter and still waiting for DRM recording.

Post by markweir » Fri Mar 29, 2019 3:38 pm

I really do love my HDHomerun setup and it has worked quite well but the inability to record DRM channels is frustrating. This is a feature Windows Media Center had oh so long ago. I don't think it is a technological hurdle at this point since you can pause DRM channels now. I would just like to know what is the hold up.

rrussis82
Posts: 439
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2018 12:46 pm
Location: Western MA

Re: Almost 4 years since Kickstarter and still waiting for DRM recording.

Post by rrussis82 » Fri Mar 29, 2019 4:08 pm

[removed by moderator]. Now that PTV has ended, I hope SD does not come up with a new project until after Prime 6, DRM recording, and new UI are completed. [removed by moderator]. Once those other projects are finished and establishes new customers and even take customers away from TIV0 to lead in the market, then focus on other ways to bring in more customers with new innovation. [removed by moderator].

dmbmke
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 6:24 pm
Device ID: 10421A53, 1071527A

Re: Almost 4 years since Kickstarter and still waiting for DRM recording.

Post by dmbmke » Fri Mar 29, 2019 9:05 pm

All of these [removed by moderator] are troubling. Why can’t we have an open discussion about the failure to deliver what was promised and missed deadlines?

reggie14
Posts: 62
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 6:17 pm

Re: Almost 4 years since Kickstarter and still waiting for DRM recording.

Post by reggie14 » Sat Mar 30, 2019 8:20 am

dmbmke wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 9:05 pm
All of these [removed by moderator] are troubling. Why can’t we have an open discussion about the failure to deliver what was promised and missed deadlines?
Of course you can. Just not here. These forums have always been heavily moderated, just like lots of company-hosted forums.

Start a new subreddit or take it to /r/cordcutters.

Jim_IT
Posts: 4
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:21 am

Re: Almost 4 years since Kickstarter and still waiting for DRM recording.

Post by Jim_IT » Sat Mar 30, 2019 8:26 am

I work for one of the large cable companies. I've been an advocate of cablecard tuners and have made sure that they are not forgotten. This included when advertising executives tried to make cable boxes a requirement for new package discounts and I referred them back to the FCC documentation that allows customers to use their own equipment and avoid the additional equipment charges.

I was also a initial investor in the SD Kickstarter. Since our company has DRM on all channels (allows no truck rolls to turn service on/off.), but not getting the project completed in 4 years is totally unacceptable. I'm pretty sure I could have coded this by myself by now.

Jim

reggie14
Posts: 62
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 6:17 pm

Re: Almost 4 years since Kickstarter and still waiting for DRM recording.

Post by reggie14 » Sat Mar 30, 2019 8:58 am

Jim_IT wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 8:26 am
I was also a initial investor in the SD Kickstarter. Since our company has DRM on all channels (allows no truck rolls to turn service on/off.), but not getting the project completed in 4 years is totally unacceptable. I'm pretty sure I could have coded this by myself by now.
Just a clarification: cable companies don't need DRM to avoid rolling trucks for service changes. They just need to use CableCards for access control. That is, for Prime owners, it doesn't matter if things aren't in ClearQAM. What matters is if the cable company marks channels as copy-once or never.

There's little reason for cable companies to mark channels copy-once. Some do because certain content owners (e.g., Fox) sometimes require it. Others enable it on all channels for reasons I don't understand.
Jim_IT wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 8:26 am
I'm pretty sure I could have coded this by myself by now.
I think you're grossly underestimating the difficulty of rolling out support for DRM across an open architecture. If SD controlled everything- the tuner, the DVR and the playback devices- then sure, DRM should be do-able. Still complicated, but do-able. Probably the natural thing to do would be to pick hardware that supports PlayReady well, since that's already been (by WMC).

But they want to support lots of devices, since they don't have their own extenders/playback devices. That significantly complicates matters, since there's not great support for a single DRM system everywhere. At least, not native support.

I'll also note that locally-managed DRM is pretty rare. That is, DRM is almost always used in online streaming scenarios. It's much less common with local content- particularly locally-recorded and stored content. Of course you can do it, but I doubt there's a mature selection of products and services that make it easy to integrate this into a diverse set of devices and applications.

DRM support always should have been viewed as a high-risk endeavor.

Jim_IT
Posts: 4
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:21 am

Re: Almost 4 years since Kickstarter and still waiting for DRM recording.

Post by Jim_IT » Sat Mar 30, 2019 10:44 am

Reggie,

I've been doing this for +30 yrs. I have almost every tuner device which was ever created. (Hard to guess how much I have spent. >1000's) I spent a week with our "CEO" in Puerto Rico who got a 0.5B golden parachute and I never even had cable ever until we got it after I went to college.

As long as you cannot get any channels over the cable connection, then no truck roll is needed. (ClearQam channels, you can still watch as long as the distribution is available, thus a truck roll to disconnect the distribution and another to reconnect.) Unfortunately, the FCC said it was ok to mark all channels for only copy once. (I've read every single page since 1988.)

All applications can be digitally encrypted and deemed as secure. I've never been to CableLabs or been able to access to their requirements, but I'm sure that after 4 years that requirements could be met.

Jim

p.s. I'm generally understood for being a PIA.

reggie14
Posts: 62
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 6:17 pm

Re: Almost 4 years since Kickstarter and still waiting for DRM recording.

Post by reggie14 » Sat Mar 30, 2019 1:38 pm

Jim_IT wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 10:44 am
As long as you cannot get any channels over the cable connection, then no truck roll is needed. (ClearQam channels, you can still watch as long as the distribution is available, thus a truck roll to disconnect the distribution and another to reconnect.) Unfortunately, the FCC said it was ok to mark all channels for only copy once. (I've read every single page since 1988.)
I'm not sure what point you're making. I was just saying DRM isn't the implication of access control. You can encrypt channels without marking them copy-once. Comcast and Verizon FiOS generally had non-premium channels marked copy-freely, at least until Fox told Verizon to mark all their channels copy-once starting in 2015. The Prime works great with encrypted, copy-freely channels. No DRM is applied in that case. That's what I used until late last year when I made the switch to YoutubeTV.
Jim_IT wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 10:44 am
All applications can be digitally encrypted and deemed as secure. I've never been to CableLabs or been able to access to their requirements, but I'm sure that after 4 years that requirements could be met.
CableLabs requirements are (mostly) available online at: https://www.cablelabs.com/specs, although its admittedly hard to find some things.

Roughly speaking, the boundary of CableLabs certification is the tuner. The tuner needs to output copy-once content under the protection of an approved DRM system, like PlayReady, DTCP, or Real Helix. At that point, CableLabs is relying on the certification programs tied to those DRM systems to ensure things are implemented properly.

I don't know what you mean when you say "all applications can be digitally encrypted and deemed as secure." Encryption doesn't really help that problem. For DRM to be effective, it needs to run in some sort of "trusted" environment. DRM implemented within an application wouldn't be secure; encrypting the application is neither necessary nor sufficient. The DRM system needs to be implemented at a layer below the application, either within the OS or in the hardware/firmware of the platform. This limits what application developers can use, as only some DRM systems will be supported on the devices/platforms you want to run your applications on. And for someone like SiliconDust, they probably can't find one DRM system that is available on every playback device they'd like to support.

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