Apple TV app (tvOS)

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Keenan
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Re: Apple TV app (tvOS)

Postby Keenan » Sat Jun 23, 2018 3:04 pm

Yes, Apple's audio output choices are a bit strange. But Atmos is coming in the iOS 12 firmware(Sept) and you can pass lossless audio(TrueHD and DTS-HD converted to PCM) now from your local LAN content with the Infuse app.

jasonl
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Re: Apple TV app (tvOS)

Postby jasonl » Sun Jun 24, 2018 4:28 pm

Streaming services don't use DTS, so why would Apple want to spend money to license it for a device intended for streaming?

jseymour won't be able to pass lossless audio because of using S/PDIF. Only HDMI has enough bandwidth. Kind of the root issue of all of this, using an old receiver that doesn't support HDMI.

Keenan
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Re: Apple TV app (tvOS)

Postby Keenan » Sun Jun 24, 2018 4:38 pm

Yes, a modern AVR is a must or at least a soundbar that can handle modern audio formats.

jseymour
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Re: Apple TV app (tvOS)

Postby jseymour » Sun Jun 24, 2018 10:06 pm

Streaming services don't use DTS, so why would Apple want to spend money to license it for a device intended for streaming?
Streaming services aren't the only thing for which these boxes are used, are they? Sure are enough people discussing the lack of DTS if you search on it. (Mainly people who've ripped DVDs with DTS sound tracks, looks like?)
jseymour won't be able to pass lossless audio because of using S/PDIF.
jseymour doesn't recall mentioning any need for lossless audio?
Only HDMI has enough bandwidth. Kind of the root issue of all of this, using an old receiver that doesn't support HDMI.
Apparently a lot of people are still using such receivers, if conversation on the various forums, blogs, and reviews of products such as the J-Tech audio extractor I have are any guide.

And even if I had a "newer" receiver there's no guarantee it'd be new enough to support DD+ (looks like that was introduced somewhere between six and ten years ago?), so I might still be out of luck with the MiBox device. And the Shield, from what I've read (see below). Certainly my old receiver isn't to blame for the Apple TV not supporting 5.1 DD source.
Yes, a modern AVR is a must or at least a soundbar that can handle modern audio formats.
Nah. Both the Apple TV and Amazon Fire devices properly transcode DD+ to DD. That's good enough for my needs. (They're the only ones that do, it would seem. See: happy 1 year 3 month anniversary since mibox nougat beta: I gave up on Android TV completely last year... [Though, as noted: He's not quite correct on the Apple TV point. And, of course, the Apple TV would do me little good with HDHR atm.])

I'm certainly not inclined to spend hundreds of dollars on a new receiver and 15' HDMI cables (at least three of them--four if I want to keep the CM DVR+ in service) for this project. Maybe next year :)

DebbieFL33
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Re: Apple TV app (tvOS)

Postby DebbieFL33 » Mon Jun 25, 2018 2:23 am

This kind of nonsense, along with the DRM/HDCP stupidity, is why I cannot find a single streaming device that will give me:
HDHomeRun,
Netflix,
Amazon Prime Video,
One America News Network, and
5.1 DD/DTS sound for all
@jseymour:

The Apple TV 4K still seems to be your best option:

HDHomeRun will likely have a tvOS app by year end. In the interim, schedule HDHR recordings on iPad/iPhone app, and stream those recordings with Infuse app to the ATV. IMO, the Infuse app has a better player than SDDVR. ($15 1x or $7/year). Do the 1 yr sub and drop it if you like the SD tvOS app upon release. Be sure to check on the differences in Infuse’s pricing.

On the sound issue, the ATV does AC3 pass-through which you previously stated was sufficient. If you need DTS for rips, probably Infuse should be able to provide (needs checking).

As you don’t like Android (Fire TV is just another version of Android) and have since changed to “i” devices, to me, it just seems logical to continue with Apple. Using @keenan suggestion of $105 brings the price down to a non-premium box.

BTW: Apple is not in the habit of adding extras to any device unless it helps sell their own media. Blu-Ray & DTS rips are not in their vocabulary. They expect app developers to provide the means necessary (inc license fees) to playback non commercial media.

jseymour
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Re: Apple TV app (tvOS)

Postby jseymour » Mon Jun 25, 2018 7:13 am

@jseymour:

The Apple TV 4K still seems to be your best option:
Perhaps. I'll see how I like the Fire device and go from there.
If you need DTS for rips, probably Infuse should be able to provide (needs checking).
Don't need them. I've done no ripping, so far. Once I get the storage space that may change. We'll see. I only mentioned the DTS thing because it seems to me a "premium" streaming device, for which one pays a premium price, ought to have it all. (Personally, I feel it should have a TOSLINK S/PDIF connection, as well.)
As you don’t like Android (Fire TV is just another version of Android) and have since changed to “i” devices, to me, it just seems logical to continue with Apple. Using @keenan suggestion of $105 brings the price down to a non-premium box.
I think I'll wait and see what transpires with SD's app and pricing on the thing.
BTW: Apple is not in the habit of adding extras to any device unless it helps sell their own media. Blu-Ray & DTS rips are not in their vocabulary.
True. But I don't have to agree with it ;) I still prefer our iThings to Android, but some things Apple does I find annoying.

Thanks for your comments, Debbie.

GetMatt
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Re: Apple TV app (tvOS)

Postby GetMatt » Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:35 pm

At the moment isn't the discussion of audio formats in relation to SD's app a moot point since all OTA and Cable TV are DD 5.1 at not any of the newer formats. Personally we have a 7.1.2 Atmos system with an Xbox as the primary device, but that does nothing for TV, just games and Movies (very few).

DebbieFL33
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Re: Apple TV app (tvOS)

Postby DebbieFL33 » Mon Jun 25, 2018 6:12 pm

To me, @jseymour is only trying to maintain parity with his current process...not necessarily make improvements. The hang up is that he likely is currently using a legacy AVR from circa/prior to 2008. Modern solutions since 2007 are built around HDMI connectivity, and he is looking to find a workaround to utilize S/PDIF to avoid having to replace his consumer/prosumer grade AVR. Good/spectacular AVR’s have great longevity but aren’t built for hardware upgrades, hence cause quite a conundrum for users...ain’t broke...works great...but connectivity sucks. :x ...why do I have to buy a new AVR? At least, this was my painful experience.

If this is not a correct assumption on my part, please advise. :lol:

gtb
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Re: Apple TV app (tvOS)

Postby gtb » Mon Jun 25, 2018 6:43 pm

...why do I have to buy a new AVR?
And one does not, but it would require yet another external converter which takes the HDMI signal and extracts/converts the audio to S/PDIF, which as for pricing (at least for the versions that reliably work at high quality, you might be able to find some cheap crap that might work some of the time) pretty much justifies the replacement cost of the AV Receiver itself. For consumer products, the lifetime of the device before replacement should be expected to be the true support time frame from the manufacturer, which is typically no more than 5 years (often less). Ten years old is dead in technology years for consumer devices, although I am sure there are still people carrying around their iPhone (the original 2007 model).
Last edited by gtb on Mon Jun 25, 2018 7:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

DebbieFL33
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Re: Apple TV app (tvOS)

Postby DebbieFL33 » Mon Jun 25, 2018 6:51 pm

@gtb - Exactly. Took me multiple years to finally ditch a great Denon receiver (which still works btw). After that I figured a life of 3-4 years for a receiver...knowing that even that gap would shrink based on exponential rather than linear improvements. Time has proved that to be true.

daveslc
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Re: Apple TV app (tvOS)

Postby daveslc » Mon Jun 25, 2018 7:19 pm

I just want to add another vote for prioritizing a tvOS app, regardless of DRM. In my case, I have a variety of Sony TVs, one AndroidTV based (love the HDHR app on it) and others that are older Sony-proprietary. I want to put ATVs on all of them so I can have a consistent TV interface. Sony has just a mess of garbage on their TVs as if they have new engineers redesign their features with every model release. Before I cut the cord, at least DirecTV provided a consistent interface for using the TVs. I have Channels on ATV and it works well, but doesn't allow access to the HDHR-DVR recordings (and I don't want to pop out another $8/mo - the point of cutting the cord was to cut down on subscriptions, not add more, and even though $35/year for HDHR-DVR is a subscription it seems much more reasonable than a monthly fee). Other than that, I'm exceptionally happy with the HDHR - replacing my dish with an outside antenna was trivial and now instead of paying $100/mo for DirecTV's 200 channels, I pay $35/year for 80 OTA channels; granted most of them are junk channels, but so were most of the channels on DirecTV.

jseymour
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Re: Apple TV app (tvOS)

Postby jseymour » Mon Jun 25, 2018 9:55 pm

At the moment isn't the discussion of audio formats in relation to SD's app a moot point since all OTA and Cable TV are DD 5.1 at not any of the newer formats.
It's more moot atm because SD doesn't yet have an app for tvOS ;)
To me, @jseymour is only trying to maintain parity with his current process...not necessarily make improvements. The hang up is that he likely is currently using a legacy AVR from circa/prior to 2008.
Yes and no to the first point. Yes to the second.

The "yes and no" part is that we're currently getting 5.1 on only some of our sources, because I ran out of optical inputs and never bothered to get an outboard optical switch. I'm trying to address that by replacing what would otherwise be three separate sound sources (TV, DVR+ and Roku 3) with a single device for receiving and DVRing OTA and streaming whatever 'net streaming services we want.
...why do I have to buy a new AVR?
And one does not, but it would require yet another external converter which takes the HDMI signal and extracts/converts the audio to S/PDIF, which as for pricing (at least for the versions that reliably work at high quality, you might be able to find some cheap crap that might work some of the time) pretty much justifies the replacement cost of the AV Receiver itself.
I guess it depends on what kind of AVR you're buying. I tend not to buy "average" consumer gear. I imagine my crusty old Yamaha receiver cost as much when I bought it as some people pay for an AVR these days. (Does a quick search...) Yeah, that thing went for $550-$700. In today's money that would be $830 to $1,056 based on inflation, alone.

(Then there's the HDMI cables: It's about 15', as the cables run, between TV stuff and where the receiver sits. [No, the receiver cannot be relocated.] Then I'd feel bound to add the back-channel speakers. I don't even want to think about what running the cables for those would entail. Better I just stay away from all that for now.)

As for audio extractors: That J-Tech extractor I got for $35 appears to work well. Gets 4.4 out of 5 stars on Amazon. We shall see. (I know there used to be more expensive solutions out there. They don't appear to be around any more.)
For consumer products, the lifetime of the device before replacement should be expected to be the true support time frame from the manufacturer, which is typically no more than 5 years (often less). Ten years old is dead in technology years for consumer devices, although I am sure there are still people carrying around their iPhone (the original 2007 model).
Manufacturers and stores just love people like you :)

I tend to buy higher quality and keep stuff until it dies or becomes truly unusable. (Part of how my wife and I have retired in relatively comfortable financial conditions was living by "Waste not, want not." We were both raised on that principle.) That receiver is not yet unusable.

I'll make it work. Or I won't :)

mcewinter
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Re: Apple TV app (tvOS)

Postby mcewinter » Tue Jun 26, 2018 7:00 am

For what it's worth (adding to the OT discussion of AVRs), I purchased a budget Onyo AVR - $400 marked down to $225 for the floor model which was missing the remote. I went to watch a movie from my Plex library and my receiver reported "Dolby Atmos". Dolby Atmos is not an advertised feature and is not one of the emblems featured on the product nor the box it came in. It was updated to have this functionality. The Sony AVR that it replaced was 7.1 with multiple inputs including HDMI, Toslink and SPDIF. I felt little need to upgrade in the first place but the Sony AVR was also a budget unit and had poor sound quality, so the upgrade was justified on sound quality alone.

My point is, a new AVR might not be the worsed investment as you brainstorm for the ideal system.

Edit: I'm honestly unsure if my AVR was Atmos capable out of the box but nothing indicates that it sgould be capable. Onkyo reveivers did recieve Chromecast functionality via an update. Point being: AVRs aren't locked into its out of box features like days past.

jseymour
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Re: Apple TV app (tvOS)

Postby jseymour » Tue Jun 26, 2018 7:58 am

The Sony AVR that it replaced was 7.1 with multiple inputs including HDMI, Toslink and SPDIF. I felt little need to upgrade in the first place but the Sony AVR was also a budget unit and had poor sound quality, ...
Which is why I don't buy "budget" sound hardware. I am, or was, an audiophile.

Had this receiver, once. No longer recall the model. It wasn't very powerful, but it was known to produce exceptionally clean sound for its price point and my budget for such things was severely constrained. (The preamp section was so good some audiophiles would use it with bigger power amps.) One day I was listening to some music and heard something that definitely didn't belong there. "WTH was that?!?!" Long story short: A particular frequency would result in terrific distortion. (It was way up there, in the range that produces what audiophiles call "air." Which is why it went unnoticed for so long. It was a subtle thing. I also determined it was in the power amp section.)

My current receiver and speakers produce sound that's nearly ruler-flat from sub-audible to past my hearing even when my hearing was good. (IIRC there's ±1dB "bump" somewhere in the low audibles. No longer recall just where.) That is why that receiver was so expensive for its time. Although my hearing is crap, these days, I can still detect anomalies in sound. Perhaps because I've been listening for them for so long.

The point being replacing that receiver would be neither an inexpensive nor an easy project. I'd rather live with Pro Logic than entertain something like that at this time.

mcewinter
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Re: Apple TV app (tvOS)

Postby mcewinter » Tue Jun 26, 2018 10:57 am

The Sony AVR that it replaced was 7.1 with multiple inputs including HDMI, Toslink and SPDIF. I felt little need to upgrade in the first place but the Sony AVR was also a budget unit and had poor sound quality, ...
Which is why I don't buy "budget" sound hardware. I am, or was, an audiophile.

Had this receiver, once. No longer recall the model. It wasn't very powerful, but it was known to produce exceptionally clean sound for its price point and my budget for such things was severely constrained. (The preamp section was so good some audiophiles would use it with bigger power amps.) One day I was listening to some music and heard something that definitely didn't belong there. "WTH was that?!?!" Long story short: A particular frequency would result in terrific distortion. (It was way up there, in the range that produces what audiophiles call "air." Which is why it went unnoticed for so long. It was a subtle thing. I also determined it was in the power amp section.)

My current receiver and speakers produce sound that's nearly ruler-flat from sub-audible to past my hearing even when my hearing was good. (IIRC there's ±1dB "bump" somewhere in the low audibles. No longer recall just where.) That is why that receiver was so expensive for its time. Although my hearing is crap, these days, I can still detect anomalies in sound. Perhaps because I've been listening for them for so long.

The point being replacing that receiver would be neither an inexpensive nor an easy project. I'd rather live with Pro Logic than entertain something like that at this time.
I can fully appreciate you appreciation in audiophile caliber equipment. Pro-logic may be in your future because inputs and stuff.


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