atsc 3.0

A place for people to discuss future hardware and software product news
IRJ
Posts: 26
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2012 2:26 pm

Re: atsc 3.0

Post by IRJ » Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:57 am

I think there are 2 markets here for SD.
1) Those of us who like to meddle with new technologies and do not expect consumer level support from SD. Rather we expect issues and revel in them. We would also likely pay up just to have the ATSC 3.0 to play with.
2) A final consumer product which fits neatly into SD's range of product offerings and can be properly consumer supported as and when roll outs of ATSC 3 becomes a significant thing country wide.

1) might be around 50+ people at best. So it's not easy for SD top put together a worthwhile product which might sell in tiny numbers over the next 6-9 months.

Me? I just need yet another gadget so I can play with it. While I was one of the first people to buy a 1080P TV I have so far held back on buying a 4K one. If I could get my hands on an ATSC 3.0 box I would buy the new TV instantly.
Meantime I have a Prime and a Quattro receiver and use the DVR feature on my Shield.
Thanks to all the SD people.

tmm1
Posts: 249
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2015 12:03 pm
Contact:

Re: atsc 3.0

Post by tmm1 » Sun Jan 12, 2020 3:37 pm

If you really want an ATSC3 tuner to play with, there is one available on https://redzonereceiver.tv/shop

plnota
Posts: 5
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2020 6:19 pm
Location: DFW

Re: atsc 3.0

Post by plnota » Sun Jan 12, 2020 4:55 pm

tmm1 wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 3:37 pm
If you really want an ATSC3 tuner to play with, there is one available on https://redzonereceiver.tv/shop
$900 for the Linux kit, which doesn't mention any sort of included player to view the broadcasts (just stats?). The $2000 Windows kit comes with software to watch broadcasts, but $2000... :?

Hope we see some more-affordable tuners come out soon. I figure cheap $20 tuners are still a few years off, but I'd drop $400 to early-adopt a 3.0 tuner box/USB dongle with the necessary software to view broadcasts.

guitarlesson
Posts: 2
Joined: Fri May 20, 2016 3:18 pm

Re: atsc 3.0

Post by guitarlesson » Fri Jan 17, 2020 10:25 am

ATSC 3.0 would probably attract me to finally upgrade my old HDHR3-US.

n4mwd
Posts: 6
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2010 10:14 am

Re: atsc 3.0

Post by n4mwd » Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:24 am

Even with regular ATSC, some broadcasters have been transmitting encrypted sub channels. I have picked them up occasionally with a high subchannel number - like 67.27 and such. I don't know for sure, but I would expect that the station must at least have the main channel free and clear. It stands to reason that ATSC3 will have more, but not all encrypted channels. I suspect that tuners would have to be equipped with smart cards or cable cards. If they required an internet connection, then that means that portable devices wouldn't work without a cell phone or something similar

That said, I would love an HDHR ATSC 3.0 tuner provided that it doesn't cost any more than regular tuners and it also gets regular ATSC.

RonRN18
Posts: 3
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2016 2:04 pm

Re: atsc 3.0

Post by RonRN18 » Fri Jan 17, 2020 12:10 pm

n4mwd wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:24 am
...
That said, I would love an HDHR ATSC 3.0 tuner provided that it doesn't cost any more than regular tuners and it also gets regular ATSC.
I am one of those excited, early-adopter, technology fans. Not that I want to pay more, but I would probably pay for up to double the price of the current tuners to be an early user. I don't live in one of the markets that is CURRENTLY broadcasting the new standard but I am in one of the markets that is supposedly going to start by the end of the year, if that speculative list is accurate. My local television market is supposedly now #20, but not far from #6 (per 2019-2020 Nielsen rankings), where if conditions are correct, I've been able to pick up some ATSC 1.0 signals. I'm not about to spend thousands of dollars for a dongle that requires even more expensive software to watch/record my favorite shows but I may be able to spend maybe a couple hundred. I would hope that it would allow for streaming more than one stream concurrently from a signal. It appears that broadcasters will be forced to hold hands, especially for the first five years, so there will likely be several major networks on one broadcasted signal.

plnota
Posts: 5
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2020 6:19 pm
Location: DFW

Re: atsc 3.0

Post by plnota » Fri Jan 17, 2020 2:21 pm

n4mwd wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:24 am
Even with regular ATSC, some broadcasters have been transmitting encrypted sub channels. I have picked them up occasionally with a high subchannel number - like 67.27 and such. I don't know for sure, but I would expect that the station must at least have the main channel free and clear. It stands to reason that ATSC3 will have more, but not all encrypted channels. I suspect that tuners would have to be equipped with smart cards or cable cards. If they required an internet connection, then that means that portable devices wouldn't work without a cell phone or something similar
Stations that broadcasted encrypted content (premium channels, like the now-defunct Airbox service) required a special STB to decrypt the video signal. With 3.0, authentication to view premium channels will probably be done over the internet, and not via a smart/cable card. If you don't have an internet connection, you won't be able to access premium channels (or other internet-based features of 3.0), but would still be able to access anything broadcast OTA unencrypted.

shspvr
Posts: 71
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 2:54 pm

Re: atsc 3.0

Post by shspvr » Sat Jan 18, 2020 5:58 pm

plnota wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:33 pm
Mediaman wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:51 pm
I like the enthusiasm but you might want to look at a recent youtube report by Antenna Man on his experience with testing 3.0 broadcast from a testing center. Do look at the current prices he lists on the available 3.0 tuners and the dongle needed for authorizing other channels that are broadcast [you will also need the broadcasters software to make it work which does not seem set in stone yet for Sinclair]. The performance of ATSC 3.0 is really great and seeing it while he drives a car vs 1.0 on a laptop at the same time shows it's strength.

I think SD should wait until TV makers buy a bunch of tuners to get the costs down to where this crowd will shell out. The switch requires the broadcaster to maintain ATSC 1.0 broadcast for 5 years after starting 3.0. The main channel must remain cost free but subchannels that exist now can become pay to play. Whether that will happen is up for debate.

Advantages - peak of 1.5 mbps for a more stable picture in 4K!; better saturation within existing markets with lower effects from planes, trees and buildings. Broadcaster can now fit 16 channels versus 5-6 within the same frequency. Broadcast of additional channels found only on cable like ESPN or the internet like Disney +; will require dongle for authorization but it seems that it is needed for any broadcast.

Downside - Like aiming an antenna at a different market source than the one intended for you?! Then you will get a reply from that broadcaster telling you sorry this content is not meant for you. This is to improve ad focus for broadcasters. They will some how [?] know who is watching what supposedly? So the dongle is listening? Will it be needed for the open broadcast? Seemed like it... may also need one for each device!!?

Much of the intended consequences seem focused on making the local broadcaster more profitable. Do not expect every market to have the same "added" channels. Another question is will there be a dongle or stb needed for each broadcaster? Maybe SD will have to make a multi dongle port stb? Or programs from each broadcaster? But will they let them distribute to any device on the home network and record?
I think you misunderstood Antenna Man's video. ATSC 3.0 isn't going to be as drastically different from 1.0 as you are describing.

There is no special dongle for authorizations, it's just a standard usb tuner dongle. You won't need any sort of software from a broadcaster, Antenna Man just needed the tuner's software to properly connect to the tuner dongle.

Regarding the downside you have mentioned - if you don't have your tuner connected to the internet, there is no way for them to know where you are located, so they won't be able to lock you out from viewing broadcasts from another market. (they wouldn't require a network connection for the major OTA networks, that would be a public safety issue)

They could definitely add some traditionally-cable channels to OTA signals, but there won't be any special broadcaster-specific dongle/stb like you're describing, it'll just require the tuner to have an internet connection to authorize access.
Yup just form what I under it has build-in 2 way communication so it only need gain access to broadcasts tower or internet for that part of authorizations which I'm sure it will have some kind build in SIM-type based solutions know as SoC system-on-a-chip which req possible a close by cell tower to work if have no internet because there no way it going to work over long distant like my case just about 50 miles in transmit mode it need a lot power.
Keep in not get data protection law can be apply this as well but as it stands now, broadcasters are only legally allowed to use the new technology for one-way transmissions from broadcaster to viewer. Those details will need to be worked out with FCC.
May guest is that FCC will only allow physical geography as in your county area and what channel and show or movie you like this helpful for rating them possible adding vote option and if you use there pay service then no personal information can be sold to 3rd market this is a must stay 100% private.
It not called traditionally-cable channels is called Pay television, also known as subscription television or premium television channels just so you know plnota.

shspvr
Posts: 71
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 2:54 pm

Re: atsc 3.0

Post by shspvr » Sat Jan 18, 2020 6:03 pm

plnota wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 2:21 pm
n4mwd wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:24 am
Even with regular ATSC, some broadcasters have been transmitting encrypted sub channels. I have picked them up occasionally with a high subchannel number - like 67.27 and such. I don't know for sure, but I would expect that the station must at least have the main channel free and clear. It stands to reason that ATSC3 will have more, but not all encrypted channels. I suspect that tuners would have to be equipped with smart cards or cable cards. If they required an internet connection, then that means that portable devices wouldn't work without a cell phone or something similar
Stations that broadcasted encrypted content (premium channels, like the now-defunct Airbox service) required a special STB to decrypt the video signal. With 3.0, authentication to view premium channels will probably be done over the internet, and not via a smart/cable card. If you don't have an internet connection, you won't be able to access premium channels (or other internet-based features of 3.0), but would still be able to access anything broadcast OTA unencrypted.
Actually you're right and wrong the smart/cable card can be done by SoC (System-on-Chip)

plnota
Posts: 5
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2020 6:19 pm
Location: DFW

Re: atsc 3.0

Post by plnota » Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:42 pm

shspvr wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 5:58 pm
Yup just form what I under it has build-in 2 way communication so it only need gain access to broadcasts tower or internet for that part of authorizations which I'm sure it will have some kind build in SIM-type based solutions know as SoC system-on-a-chip which req possible a close by cell tower to work if have no internet because there no way it going to work over long distant like my case just about 50 miles in transmit mode it need a lot power.
Keep in not get data protection law can be apply this as well but as it stands now, broadcasters are only legally allowed to use the new technology for one-way transmissions from broadcaster to viewer. Those details will need to be worked out with FCC.
May guest is that FCC will only allow physical geography as in your county area and what channel and show or movie you like this helpful for rating them possible adding vote option and if you use there pay service then no personal information can be sold to 3rd market this is a must stay 100% private.
It not called traditionally-cable channels is called Pay television, also known as subscription television or premium television channels just so you know plnota.
ATSC 3.0 supports 2-way communication, but only over the internet. Stations will broadcast their main video content over-the-air, but if you want to access additional content, or authenticate to view content, it will be done over the internet. 3.0 tuner manufacturers will not put a cellular connection in each tuner, as that would not only add additional cost to tuners, but would require users to subscribe for cellular service. There is no way a cellular provider will sign a deal to include service "for free" for the tuner, as the additional content I mentioned could also include 4K video, which would really bog down a cellular network. So, 3.0 tuner manufacturers will just stick with using your ethernet and WiFi.

I doubt there will be any enforcing of watching out-of-market channels, because if you never connect your 3.0 tuner to the internet, there is no way for it to know what market you are in.

"Traditionally-cable channels" means the same as pay/subscription/premium television. :roll: But there is a difference between channels that traditionally appear on cable/sat/iptv, like ESPN or The Weather Channel, and other forms of pay/subscription/premium channels, like ones that are only streamed over the internet. The former could appear on OTA (for example, an ABC-owned station could broadcast an encrypted stream of ESPN on their OTA signal, but require your tuner to authenticate over the internet, possibly requiring you to login to a TV Everywhere type of account, to be able to decrypt the stream), while the later will most likely stay internet-based.
shspvr wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 6:03 pm
Actually you're right and wrong the smart/cable card can be done by SoC (System-on-Chip)
Yes, but that is not how they will be doing it with ATSC 3.0 though. They will just handle authentication over the internet, and not via an exploitable method like a smartcard. (Cablecards are for cable, not OTA)

shspvr
Posts: 71
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 2:54 pm

Re: atsc 3.0

Post by shspvr » Sun Jan 19, 2020 10:28 am

plnota wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:42 pm
ATSC 3.0 supports 2-way communication, but only over the internet. Stations will broadcast their main video content over-the-air, but if you want to access additional content, or authenticate to view content, it will be done over the internet. 3.0 tuner manufacturers will not put a cellular connection in each tuner, as that would not only add additional cost to tuners, but would require users to subscribe for cellular service. There is no way a cellular provider will sign a deal to include service "for free" for the tuner, as the additional content I mentioned could also include 4K video, which would really bog down a cellular network. So, 3.0 tuner manufacturers will just stick with using your ethernet and WiFi.
They don't need put up cell tower as there all ready in place ever where and apparently you don't get it ever had of STB wake up smell the rose buddy have ever heard of cellular mobile hotspot device they can easy integrate this in to STB and or TV set you do know that can get internet data only package ?.
As for the additional video content those are just small short clips only and very low bite rate.
plnota wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:42 pm
I doubt there will be any enforcing of watching out-of-market channels, because if you never connect your 3.0 tuner to the internet, there is no way for it to know what market you are in.
LoL I have 3 out-of-market channels Kansas, Missouri and Arkansas
Over the internet TV steam are called national steam just like what found on satellite and cable with the exception of your OTA channel which are actual local broadcast channel with local support ads by your local business and even national ads mix in but some cable companies do manipulate other channel that only be the big boy like Comcast, Time Warner or AT&T.
plnota wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:42 pm
"Traditionally-cable channels" means the same as pay/subscription/premium television. :roll: But there is a difference between channels that traditionally appear on cable/sat/iptv, like ESPN or The Weather Channel, and other forms of pay/subscription/premium channels, like ones that are only streamed over the internet. The former could appear on OTA (for example, an ABC-owned station could broadcast an encrypted stream of ESPN on their OTA signal, but require your tuner to authenticate over the internet, possibly requiring you to login to a TV Everywhere type of account, to be able to decrypt the stream), while the later will most likely stay internet-based.
No really what give you that clue we ready know that it can be any channel other then you Local broadcast
No it nothing like TV Everywhere type of account that req you to have existing Cable, Live TV Steaming (Hulu TV, YouTube TV or etc) or Satellite TV service
It be run by the you Local TV station it self that where you sign up and pay thru them so if they offer DIY, Cartoon, Motor trend channel and god know what else and all software and modulation decryption key is transmitted back your tuner to authenticate and stored for on board SoC can run firmware code known as a Conditional-Access Module function or DCAS 'Downloadable Conditional Access System" and do it job of decryption the stream coming over OTA encrypted channel to be view by you the viewer just like CableCard and SIM do integrated security access mechanism.
plnota wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:42 pm
Yes, but that is not how they will be doing it with ATSC 3.0 though. They will just handle authentication over the internet, and not via an exploitable method like a smartcard. (Cablecards are for cable, not OTA)
Apparently you don't have FIRST clue to how ATSC 3.0 pay TV service even work as it is much more then just authentication.

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