Stage 2?

Support for and discussion of the HDHomeRun Premium TV service
ACraigo
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Location: Deep Canyon in WV (by God)

Re: Stage 2?

Postby ACraigo » Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:36 pm

Maybe you are currently limited by the State 1.5 issues, but one thing I've noticed between the ATSC streams and your IP streams is the snappiness when scrubbing through in VLC. Trying to play your clips often gives me a second or two delay after repositioning the timeline. While ATSC (and even my own Handbrake files using constant quality) don't have that same kind of delay. I don't know if that is something you can clean up, but it would be appreciated.

Some of my 1280x720 handbrake files are easily under 1GB per hour, and yet they have quality and snappiness better than the streams from Silicon Dust. Of course I'm not putting them into a transport stream either, so maybe that changes things slightly.
I got tired of VideoReDo crashing on almost every single PTV edit... I started using "QuickStreamFix" (Handy VRD Tool) and the problem vanished. What does QuickStreamFix do? I'm sure I don't have a clue, but it does something to fix something that's not right in SD's PTV Streams... that much is certain.

Edit:
What does QuickStreamFix do?
https://videoredo.com/en/TVSuiteV5_help ... amfix.html

Note: I assume the 'fix' it's applying does the same important stuff for AVC streams as it does for MPEG-2 streams 'cause after I use it on a PTV Strream VRD runs flawlessly. Without using it the experience is quite painful.
Last edited by ACraigo on Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

pixelstuff
Posts: 116
Joined: Sun Oct 10, 2010 8:27 am

Re: Stage 2?

Postby pixelstuff » Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:58 pm

...
I mean when I've got one reasonably sized file that looks great at 1.5GB per hour... the next one turns out to be 3.5GB per hour for no apparent reason.
...
Until SD realizes that in order for customers out here on this end to do anything with that material they're providing they're going to have to give us something we can work with, not much will ever change. I don't want SD telling me how much bit rate my recordings should have. I want SD providing me a bit rate I can work with that has AMPLE QUALITY TO SPARE... not some second-rate, unacceptable encoding job leaving me with absolutely nothing to work with.
...
The reason is most likely trees and scenery. When I recompress CBS shows from Hawaii, they are always 1.2-1.5 times larger than shows without lots of greenery and shots of the landscape.

Regarding your comments about "enough bits to work with" I'm pretty sure that's not SD's primary goal, and most definitely isn't a desire of the publishers. The publishers probably want to prevent all editing an commercial removal. So SD will have to balance on the line between giving us reworkable material and looking like they aren't. I think their main customers, the ones willing to setup their own DVR and live with the downside of internet glitching, are going to be the kind that want to rework the material for "enhanced" watching. So, unfortunately for SD, I'm I'm not sure this Premium TV experiment will last if they can't strike the right balance (which they haven't done yet).

ACraigo
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Location: Deep Canyon in WV (by God)

Re: Stage 2?

Postby ACraigo » Tue Dec 04, 2018 9:01 pm

Regarding your comments about "enough bits to work with" I'm pretty sure that's not SD's primary goal, and most definitely isn't a desire of the publishers. The publishers probably want to prevent all editing an commercial removal. So SD will have to balance on the line between giving us reworkable material and looking like they aren't. I think their main customers, the ones willing to setup their own DVR and live with the downside of internet glitching, are going to be the kind that want to rework the material for "enhanced" watching. So, unfortunately for SD, I'm I'm not sure this Premium TV experiment will last if they can't strike the right balance (which they haven't done yet).
They (SD) are providing a DVR service. That's going to require that I am able to do whatever I want with the stream SD is providing and I'm paying for. IF that isn't the ultimate goal, then somebody should tell me right about now.

pixelstuff
Posts: 116
Joined: Sun Oct 10, 2010 8:27 am

Re: Stage 2?

Postby pixelstuff » Tue Dec 04, 2018 9:07 pm

Regarding your comments about "enough bits to work with" I'm pretty sure that's not SD's primary goal, and most definitely isn't a desire of the publishers. The publishers probably want to prevent all editing an commercial removal. So SD will have to balance on the line between giving us reworkable material and looking like they aren't. I think their main customers, the ones willing to setup their own DVR and live with the downside of internet glitching, are going to be the kind that want to rework the material for "enhanced" watching. So, unfortunately for SD, I'm I'm not sure this Premium TV experiment will last if they can't strike the right balance (which they haven't done yet).
They (SD) are providing a DVR service. That's going to require that I am able to do whatever I want with the stream SD is providing and I'm paying for. IF that isn't the ultimate goal, then somebody should tell me right about now.
Yeah. I didn't say you can't do whatever you want to with the crappy streams. Just maybe we can't expect it to be catered to the commercial cutters. I mean strictly speaking a DVR service only requires that you can record and playback the file. Everything else is just a side effect of the publishers not having an iron grip on their audience.

nickk
Silicondust
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Re: Stage 2?

Postby nickk » Tue Dec 04, 2018 9:10 pm

ACraigo - we know what we are doing with encoding. Today the quality is primarily determined by the source feed, not our encoding. The big Stage 2 win comes from bypassing the encoding happening upstream and getting the deinterlacing + encoding right.

Note that the occasional glitch you are seeing is something else. I will have an update (or fix) on that subject later in the week.

Nick

Sammy2
Posts: 551
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2012 11:49 am

Re: Stage 2?

Postby Sammy2 » Tue Dec 04, 2018 9:19 pm

I'm still pretty happy with the service even running recordings through MCEBuddy, ComSkip and HandBrake I'm seeing bit rates of 2.65 just on the video. I know OTA is higher but this isn't OTA and I don't have portability during international travel with any other service without setting up a VPN.

That said, I look forward to the forthcoming improvements.

ACraigo
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Location: Deep Canyon in WV (by God)

Re: Stage 2?

Postby ACraigo » Tue Dec 04, 2018 9:20 pm

ACraigo - we know what we are doing with encoding. Today the quality is primarily determined by the source feed, not our encoding. The big Stage 2 win comes from bypassing the encoding happening upstream and getting the deinterlacing + encoding right.

Note that the occasional glitch you are seeing is something else. I will have an update (or fix) on that subject later in the week.

Nick
OK, thanks for the update, but do have a look here:
viewtopic.php?p=334422#p334422

There's something about PTV streams that benefits from "QuickStreamFix". I have no idea if what needs fixing is related to 'the glitch' issue, but that's something you should investigate 'cause after a "QuickStreamFix" these misbehaving PTV streams out here on this end are very well behaved.

Of course, that doesn't fix mess-ups encoded in before you get them, but something happening after that - in your house - needs the fix.

Nick? You can't justify encoding interlacing artifacts into a progressive video stream, man. You can't and it's been this way since day one.

youareme7
Posts: 14
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2016 8:28 am

Re: Stage 2?

Postby youareme7 » Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:06 am

More Stage 1.5 progress... CNBC has been upgraded to solve the deinterlacing problem on that channel. Other channels are being upgraded over the coming week.

Nick
Nick, I appreciate all the updates you and the team are providing towards a stage 2 rollout and other improvements but could you guys maybe make a locked sticky with your various updates? I'm not currently a subscriber because I'm waiting for that stage 2 which I believe will have surround sound where supported (HVEC is exciting too, I know my Nvidia Shields can do it I've been recording that way on my cable card tuner for a while) and I've been following this post because I'm interested in the progress but I have to say wading through all the badgering is a bit exasperating. Looking forward to checking out PTV again in the future!

nateb
Silicondust
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Re: Stage 2?

Postby nateb » Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:09 pm

More Stage 1.5 progress... CNBC has been upgraded to solve the deinterlacing problem on that channel. Other channels are being upgraded over the coming week.

Nick
Nick, I appreciate all the updates you and the team are providing towards a stage 2 rollout and other improvements but could you guys maybe make a locked sticky with your various updates? I'm not currently a subscriber because I'm waiting for that stage 2 which I believe will have surround sound where supported (HVEC is exciting too, I know my Nvidia Shields can do it I've been recording that way on my cable card tuner for a while) and I've been following this post because I'm interested in the progress but I have to say wading through all the badgering is a bit exasperating. Looking forward to checking out PTV again in the future!
This is not a bad idea. Next time we have a big update, I'll see if I can't set that up.

mike3
Posts: 74
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2018 5:21 am

Re: Stage 2?

Postby mike3 » Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:18 pm

More Stage 1.5 progress... CNBC has been upgraded to solve the deinterlacing problem on that channel. Other channels are being upgraded over the coming week.

Nick
Nick, I appreciate all the updates you and the team are providing towards a stage 2 rollout and other improvements but could you guys maybe make a locked sticky with your various updates? I'm not currently a subscriber because I'm waiting for that stage 2 which I believe will have surround sound where supported (HVEC is exciting too, I know my Nvidia Shields can do it I've been recording that way on my cable card tuner for a while) and I've been following this post because I'm interested in the progress but I have to say wading through all the badgering is a bit exasperating. Looking forward to checking out PTV again in the future!
This is not a bad idea. Next time we have a big update, I'll see if I can't set that up.
Nate can we get some insight on all these broken channels???

scubajwd
Posts: 128
Joined: Fri Aug 23, 2013 10:31 am

Re: Stage 2?

Postby scubajwd » Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:20 pm

More Stage 1.5 progress... CNBC has been upgraded to solve the deinterlacing problem on that channel. Other channels are being upgraded over the coming week.

Nick
CNBC viewed on my Fire TV 4K was absolutely stunning in PQ & Audio yesterday when I
watched the market melt down..I couldn't believe my eyes..I thought I was looking at
an OTA MPEG2 stream at 14 Mbps..something clearly is happening here for the better!!!

ej_424
Posts: 8
Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2018 12:11 pm

Re: Stage 2?

Postby ej_424 » Thu Dec 06, 2018 12:18 pm

I just came from Youtube TV and DirecTV Now. Pretty disappointing in the picture quality, especially dark scenes. Super pixelated, to the point it's almost embarrassing to have others watch TV at my house. Bright scenes seem to look ok, albeit a soft looking picture.

I have ubiquit network gear throughout my house and hard wired 1Gb connection so its my my network. I haven't tested all channels but AMC is bad.

EricGRIT09
Posts: 18
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2018 11:42 am

Re: Stage 2?

Postby EricGRIT09 » Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:20 pm

I just came from Youtube TV and DirecTV Now. Pretty disappointing in the picture quality, especially dark scenes. Super pixelated, to the point it's almost embarrassing to have others watch TV at my house. Bright scenes seem to look ok, albeit a soft looking picture.

I have ubiquit network gear throughout my house and hard wired 1Gb connection so its my my network. I haven't tested all channels but AMC is bad.
Yeah it's not your network, for sure. If it was then you would be getting buffering or stuttering as there aren't dynamic quality adjustments built into the service/stream at this point.

Overall the quality is just much, much lower than alternatives but the hope here is that Stage 2 gets us there.

ej_424
Posts: 8
Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2018 12:11 pm

Re: Stage 2?

Postby ej_424 » Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:52 pm

I just came from Youtube TV and DirecTV Now. Pretty disappointing in the picture quality, especially dark scenes. Super pixelated, to the point it's almost embarrassing to have others watch TV at my house. Bright scenes seem to look ok, albeit a soft looking picture.

I have ubiquit network gear throughout my house and hard wired 1Gb connection so its my my network. I haven't tested all channels but AMC is bad.
Yeah it's not your network, for sure. If it was then you would be getting buffering or stuttering as there aren't dynamic quality adjustments built into the service/stream at this point.

Overall the quality is just much, much lower than alternatives but the hope here is that Stage 2 gets us there.
Ya lets hope so. Especially when they aren't cutting the competition from a price perspective. Its about in line with them based on channels offered and theirs include DVR features now. I just really like the idea and having one app is nice. I have a Sony android TV and Sony's TV program feature brings all the HR HD stations rightin into a nice guide with pause, rewind and Ffwd support. This is without even needing the HD HR App. Its very slick!

ctalbot
Posts: 33
Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2015 9:28 am

Re: Stage 2?

Postby ctalbot » Fri Dec 21, 2018 11:30 am

Any update on time frame for stage 2 and HEVC support? I assume this is proceeding independent of the 8 channels missing.


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