Stage 2?

Support for and discussion of the HDHomeRun Premium TV service
ACraigo
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Re: Stage 2?

Postby ACraigo » Sun Dec 02, 2018 1:01 pm

I was able to reproduce the problem and code up a way for our servers to detect it.

Two possible causes come to mind... continuing to investigate.

Nick
Any update on the glitch issue?

TechTaiycho
Posts: 15
Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:42 pm

Re: Stage 2?

Postby TechTaiycho » Sun Dec 02, 2018 1:22 pm

We completed our side of Stage 2 a while ago. Currently waiting on our provider to sort some things out.

Nick
SERIOUSLY!!!!!!!!!???????? :-D

Zig
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Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2018 3:49 pm

Re: Stage 2?

Postby Zig » Sun Dec 02, 2018 1:25 pm

[TOS VIOLATION: multiple forum accounts]

tpm
Posts: 135
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2011 3:09 pm

Re: Stage 2?

Postby tpm » Sun Dec 02, 2018 1:42 pm

We completed our side of Stage 2 a while ago. Currently waiting on our provider to sort some things out.

Nick
Any chance you can share the expected results from stage 2 at this point? H.265 alongside h.264 for sure? Assuming the upstream provider holds up their end of the bargain, can you share expected bitrates for each codec? Any 60fps streams for stage 2?
I'm not speaking for SD, but my understanding was that 60fps was definitely part of stage 2. Originally, h.265 was the plan, but it sounds like that changed. I'm guessing perhaps select channels will have an h.265 option, but that's pure speculation on my part.

nickk
Silicondust
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Re: Stage 2?

Postby nickk » Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:55 pm

EricGRIT09 - the system has the ability to do h264 and hevc at 30 or 60fps. We have been testing hevc compatibility - any Windows, Mac, or iOS device running the latest OS will do hevc. Android devices are being tested as we go through other tests. Decisions will be made once we are into onsite testing.

ACraigo - we have a working theory as to the cause. If we are right we have an idea as to how to address the issue. Not a weekend fix.

Zig - we are in the process of adding channels from other providers. Lot is happening right now.

Nick

Saiz
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Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2018 12:04 pm

Re: Stage 2?

Postby Saiz » Sun Dec 02, 2018 3:05 pm

EricGRIT09 - the system has the ability to do h264 and hevc at 30 or 60fps. We have been testing hevc compatibility - any Windows, Mac, or iOS device running the latest OS will do hevc. Android devices are being tested as we go through other tests. Decisions will be made once we are into onsite testing.

ACraigo - we have a working theory as to the cause. If we are right we have an idea as to how to address the issue. Not a weekend fix.

Zig - we are in the process of adding channels from other providers. Lot is happening right now.

Nick
Thanks for all the updates this weekend. Hopefully you guys will be able to show us everything you guys have been working on soon. Looking forward to stage 2 going live.

alexander7567
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Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2018 12:35 pm

Re: Stage 2?

Postby alexander7567 » Sun Dec 02, 2018 5:40 pm

EricGRIT09 - the system has the ability to do h264 and hevc at 30 or 60fps. We have been testing hevc compatibility - any Windows, Mac, or iOS device running the latest OS will do hevc. Android devices are being tested as we go through other tests. Decisions will be made once we are into onsite testing.

ACraigo - we have a working theory as to the cause. If we are right we have an idea as to how to address the issue. Not a weekend fix.

Zig - we are in the process of adding channels from other providers. Lot is happening right now.

Nick
Any ideas when we might find out what these channels are? I'm pretty excited hoping it's Dinsey Jr and Nick Jr.

Zorg
Posts: 112
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2018 10:56 am

Re: Stage 2?

Postby Zorg » Mon Dec 03, 2018 1:26 pm

EricGRIT09 - the system has the ability to do h264 and hevc at 30 or 60fps. We have been testing hevc compatibility - any Windows, Mac, or iOS device running the latest OS will do hevc. Android devices are being tested as we go through other tests. Decisions will be made once we are into onsite testing.

ACraigo - we have a working theory as to the cause. If we are right we have an idea as to how to address the issue. Not a weekend fix.

Zig - we are in the process of adding channels from other providers. Lot is happening right now.

Nick
Sounds great, but when will we actually see 2.0 improvements?

Sammy2
Posts: 551
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2012 11:49 am

Re: Stage 2?

Postby Sammy2 » Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:13 pm

I'm patient but I'm not really seeing / having the issues reported here as to quality. I haven't seen those glitches and I've been watching Cable News and recording Bar Rescue quite a bit.. Maybe it is a channel related issue?

Occasionally we'll see a pixelated block but not anything more than seen with CableCARD and HDHRPrime in the past so I don't see it as being any worse.

EricGRIT09
Posts: 18
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2018 11:42 am

Re: Stage 2?

Postby EricGRIT09 » Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:42 pm

I'm patient but I'm not really seeing / having the issues reported here as to quality. I haven't seen those glitches and I've been watching Cable News and recording Bar Rescue quite a bit.. Maybe it is a channel related issue?

Occasionally we'll see a pixelated block but not anything more than seen with CableCARD and HDHRPrime in the past so I don't see it as being any worse.
Sammy there are a few reports of the intermittent blocking but overall video quality is low across the board as well. If you look at the stream info they seem to be averaging 1.5mbps which is very low. Most providers are around 4 or 5mbps, some higher... not many (any?) lower. Trying not to go bashing here, this is just where I see the biggest opportunity for improvement.

nateb
Silicondust
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Re: Stage 2?

Postby nateb » Tue Dec 04, 2018 6:29 pm



Sammy there are a few reports of the intermittent blocking but overall video quality is low across the board as well. If you look at the stream info they seem to be averaging 1.5mbps which is very low. Most providers are around 4 or 5mbps, some higher... not many (any?) lower. Trying not to go bashing here, this is just where I see the biggest opportunity for improvement.
I want to address this for a sec. There’s a very good chance that even after the full update, we’ll still have one of the lowest bitrates around, because of our decision to use constant quality encoding rather than constant bitrate. Most of these services are using constant bitrate, which artificially inflates the bitrate, so you get 4mbps in fast action scenes that can use it and 4mbps in slow scenes that can’t. Eventually, that bitrate becomes more marketing stunt than reality.

By using constant quality our goal is to reach as many cordcutting households as possible, even those that normally can’t receive anything else. There will surely be tweaking whenever we can finally implement the new plan based on feedback, but one goal will always be to have similar quality at more intelligent bitrates.

ycavan
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Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2018 11:34 am

Re: Stage 2?

Postby ycavan » Tue Dec 04, 2018 7:00 pm

I'm going to put this out there that I prefer lower bitrates. I'm from an older generation where tv was always static-y lol :) & I prefer to not have to upgrade my ISP's plan just to increase my bandwidth cap. :))

pixelstuff
Posts: 116
Joined: Sun Oct 10, 2010 8:27 am

Re: Stage 2?

Postby pixelstuff » Tue Dec 04, 2018 7:30 pm



Sammy there are a few reports of the intermittent blocking but overall video quality is low across the board as well. If you look at the stream info they seem to be averaging 1.5mbps which is very low. Most providers are around 4 or 5mbps, some higher... not many (any?) lower. Trying not to go bashing here, this is just where I see the biggest opportunity for improvement.
I want to address this for a sec. There’s a very good chance that even after the full update, we’ll still have one of the lowest bitrates around, because of our decision to use constant quality encoding rather than constant bitrate. Most of these services are using constant bitrate, which artificially inflates the bitrate, so you get 4mbps in fast action scenes that can use it and 4mbps in slow scenes that can’t. Eventually, that bitrate becomes more marketing stunt than reality.

By using constant quality our goal is to reach as many cordcutting households as possible, even those that normally can’t receive anything else. There will surely be tweaking whenever we can finally implement the new plan based on feedback, but one goal will always be to have similar quality at more intelligent bitrates.
Maybe you are currently limited by the State 1.5 issues, but one thing I've noticed between the ATSC streams and your IP streams is the snappiness when scrubbing through in VLC. Trying to play your clips often gives me a second or two delay after repositioning the timeline. While ATSC (and even my own Handbrake files using constant quality) don't have that same kind of delay. I don't know if that is something you can clean up, but it would be appreciated.

Some of my 1280x720 handbrake files are easily under 1GB per hour, and yet they have quality and snappiness better than the streams from Silicon Dust. Of course I'm not putting them into a transport stream either, so maybe that changes things slightly.
Last edited by pixelstuff on Tue Dec 04, 2018 7:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

jasonthemann
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Joined: Wed May 27, 2015 10:56 pm

Re: Stage 2?

Postby jasonthemann » Tue Dec 04, 2018 7:35 pm

I am excited for HEVC at 60 hz, I realize it wont work for everyone, but for some it would be fantastic. Any thought given to a second channel range, say 2000 series channels (identical in number to the corresponding 1000 series channel) that are HEVC. The afore-mentioned 1400 kbps would be great for x265. By running two sets of channels for different codecs, people could try out the HEVC channels and if they don't work, go back to x264. Those of us who can use the HEVC could hide all the x264 channels and vice-versa. I use KODI and the HDHR plugin, so my guide data comes straight from HDHR, so it would be easy to send me the correct data for the second set of channels, I also use the HDHR DVR to record to my NAS, this would save me space and provide me a higher quality product, win-win. I realize there are logistical hurdles to a second set of channels, like guide data and such, but if it means appeasing those who don't want to upgrade their equipment and providing higher quality for those who can handle it, maybe it could be an option?

ACraigo
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Location: Deep Canyon in WV (by God)

Re: Stage 2?

Postby ACraigo » Tue Dec 04, 2018 7:53 pm

Every Handbrake job I've ever done in my life is superior to SD encoding. I gave up on Constant Quality some time ago when I COULD NOT get a reliable file size. In fact, when I use Constant Quality I might get 1 out of 10 encodes in 'file size target window'. 9 out of 10 are so bit rate inflated it boggles the mind. I mean when I've got one reasonably sized file that looks great at 1.5GB per hour... the next one turns out to be 3.5GB per hour for no apparent reason.

Using that logic SD has the CQ setting dialed down low enough so as not to go over their target bit rate - a target bit rate that's too low. SD material is bit starved now, always has been bit starved and from the sounds of it will remain bit starved.

I question the skill of any 'encoder' that would allow Interlaced material to be encoded and delivered to customers IN A STREAM LABELLED PROGRESSIVE WITHOUT HAVING BEEN DE-INTERLACED! <---- that, I'm afraid, is a rookie mistake I quit making decades ago.

Until SD realizes that in order for customers out here on this end to do anything with that material they're providing they're going to have to give us something we can work with, not much will ever change. I don't want SD telling me how much bit rate my recordings should have. I want SD providing me a bit rate I can work with that has AMPLE QUALITY TO SPARE... not some second-rate, unacceptable encoding job leaving me with absolutely nothing to work with.

If SD wants to go green, they should do it somewhere else other than in the stream I'm paying for. If SD wants to green up their streams they should bake that setting into the UI (or Settings UI, buried deep within) they've been working on that has a 'green default' setting. One I can then crank up to 11. That'll suit me, SD will be happy and your regular Mom n Pop SD customer won't know the difference.


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