Stage 2?

Support for and discussion of the HDHomeRun Premium TV service
ctalbot
Posts: 22
Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2015 9:28 am

Re: Stage 2?

Postby ctalbot » Thu Oct 04, 2018 3:34 pm

Yes, but that is not what would be used on the head end of a cable system. I am just wondering how that DirecTV screensaver got there. On another question... since Omniverse supplies the 4 local NY area CBS/NBC/FOX/CW on the other services powered by there feed why does SD not give those on their premium channels?
You "should" be getting your locals OTA. That's kind of the point. PTV is supplemental to that.
I do, but for some they may have trouble getting all of the networks, so supplementing them with the NY feeds would be nice.

Wouldn't that cost more and increase the price of Premium TV?

Here's a better idea, integrate ****** streaming into the Premium TV subscription. This is provided by a non-profit so it shouldn't add any cost and solves the problem for those that can't receive reliable OTA in the major cities.
[removed by moderator]

Neptunetides1983
Posts: 160
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:56 pm

Re: Stage 2?

Postby Neptunetides1983 » Thu Oct 04, 2018 3:46 pm

Yes, that is on of the things I find weird is that Omniverse is the provider but we all saw that DirecTV screen saver that day. Why would they source their stream from DirecTV and not directly from the program providers satellite feed (i.e. ESPN, CNN, etc.)? I know for a fact that cable companies do not get their feeds from directv. Nick, any insight on why we saw that DirecTV screensaver that day?
Not sourced from DirectTV.

I am not sure what specific satellite receiver hardware they are using but I am familiar with the industry leading rack-mount multi-channel commercial receiver... it includes DirectTV software so it can support commercial DirectTV customers.
Yes, but that is not what would be used on the head end of a cable system. I am just wondering how that DirecTV screensaver got there. On another question... since Omniverse supplies the 4 local NY area CBS/NBC/FOX/CW on the other services powered by there feed why does SD not give those on their premium channels?
There are many differences between Premium TV, and the other Services that are apparently utilizing the same source Streams, that would make Premium TV economical for SD. All of those other services look exactly the same, with the same channels, the same guide, and those NY area locals.

Premium TV uses their own guide data,( on HDHR app, and 3rd parties like Channels, Plex etc use their own as well), does not use the providers Cloud DVR, and does not use the local feeds. Premium TV is apparently installing their own equipment in the providers COLA to improve the Stream for subscribers. I presume all of these factors would allow for favorable wholesale rates, compared to the other services who use the entire spectrum of offerings from the provider.

Sling TV's president has stated the rebroadcast fees that locals charge streaming services make up $15-$20 of the monthly subscribers fee. The majority of HDHomerun's Connect Duo/Quattro customers purchased these devices to have access to locals without needing a Streaming service. I'm sure there may be a small percentage who have invested in Connects, prior to Premium TV's introduction for some other reason, but I can't imagine it to be significant %.

I would assume SD has no financial interest in providing local service over the OTA devices they sell, especially if it would significantly effect their wholesale rates from the provider.

There are more OTA DVR devices on the market in the US than I have seen in a very long time. Companies are investing in these products because that is where the market/industry is heading, and there is an obvious demand.

But Who Knows,...

lsawyer
Posts: 29
Joined: Thu Aug 23, 2018 11:26 am

Re: Stage 2?

Postby lsawyer » Thu Oct 04, 2018 6:06 pm

[TOS VIOLATION: multiple forum accounts]

KryptoNyte
Posts: 104
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2011 12:14 pm

Re: Stage 2?

Postby KryptoNyte » Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:03 pm

5.1 audio will require some of the changes that are occurring in phase 2.
I understood Stage 2 to be HEVC video. For those of us whose configuration can't render h.265, will there still be an option to get an h.264 video stream with 5.1 channel audio?

Zorg
Posts: 82
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2018 10:56 am

Re: Stage 2?

Postby Zorg » Tue Oct 09, 2018 1:27 pm

BTW - there is a "Stage 1.5" happening while we work on Stage 2... upstream deinterlace fix is in the works and we should be getting a higher quality source for ESPN channels.
We got off topic a bit. This seems to be about the last actual Stage 2 update from about a week ago. Is there any new info to share? ETA on 1.5 and 2.0?

nickk
Silicondust
Posts: 14993
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2004 9:39 am

Re: Stage 2?

Postby nickk » Thu Oct 11, 2018 2:27 pm

Running a ton of tests relating to encoding for stage 2 comparing encoding options and comparing h264 vs hevc.

ESPN looks great (test streams, not on the live feed yet).

Muttering about APL. The test stream for APL is a modern made-for-cable show following a US family adopting a dog. Spent most of yesterday debugging because it looked like the deinterlacer was messing up. It wasn't.

Figured out what was going on... the show was produced in 24p, then APL duplicated frames to make it 60p (ie every 2nd frame is a duplicate, sometimes 3 in a row), then applied interlacing to output 1080i for broadcast. Every frame is interlaced. Our deinterlacer does a good job of undoing the interlacing but you are left with 2-3 duplicate frames in a row so you have to frame step 2-3 times before anything moves on screen.

Compared with APL on Comcast who re-encode to 720p... different show playing, exact same problem.
A few other channels are like this.

GRRR.

tpm
Posts: 124
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2011 3:09 pm

Re: Stage 2?

Postby tpm » Thu Oct 11, 2018 2:48 pm

Running a ton of tests relating to encoding for stage 2 comparing encoding options and comparing h264 vs hevc.

ESPN looks great (test streams, not on the live feed yet).

Muttering about APL. The test stream for APL is a modern made-for-cable show following a US family adopting a dog. Spent most of yesterday debugging because it looked like the deinterlacer was messing up. It wasn't.

Figured out what was going on... the show was produced in 24p, then APL duplicated frames to make it 60p (ie every 2nd frame is a duplicate, sometimes 3 in a row), then applied interlacing to output 1080i for broadcast. Every frame is interlaced. Our deinterlacer does a good job of undoing the interlacing but you are left with 2-3 duplicate frames in a row so you have to frame step 2-3 times before anything moves on screen.

Compared with APL on Comcast who re-encode to 720p... different show playing, exact same problem.
A few other channels are like this.

GRRR.
I identify heavily with this. Check out Too Cute on APL, it airs like once a day. They show three different stories, each individually and independently shot. Some are shot in 24p and some at 30i, but combined into one episode. And you never know in each episode. Comcast seems to get it right, I think.

nickk
Silicondust
Posts: 14993
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2004 9:39 am

Re: Stage 2?

Postby nickk » Thu Oct 11, 2018 3:52 pm

I identify heavily with this. Check out Too Cute on APL, it airs like once a day. They show three different stories, each individually and independently shot. Some are shot in 24p and some at 30i, but combined into one episode. And you never know in each episode. Comcast seems to get it right, I think.
It looks like Comcast are converting from 1080i60 to 720p60 with no special handling (I can sometimes catch a frame where there are interlacing artifacts and it has 2-3 duplicate frames in a row).

tpm
Posts: 124
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2011 3:09 pm

Re: Stage 2?

Postby tpm » Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:05 pm

I identify heavily with this. Check out Too Cute on APL, it airs like once a day. They show three different stories, each individually and independently shot. Some are shot in 24p and some at 30i, but combined into one episode. And you never know in each episode. Comcast seems to get it right, I think.
It looks like Comcast are converting from 1080i60 to 720p60 with no special handling (I can sometimes catch a frame where there are interlacing artifacts and it has 2-3 duplicate frames in a row).
Whenever I go frame-by-frame through a Comcast transport stream, that's exactly what it looks like to me too: Basically a bob deinterlace of a 1080i feed and a resize to 720p.

When they first switched over, there were far more interlacing artifacts and macroblocking. They've definitely "dialed in" their encodes a bit. That being said, the live transcoding of channels like RedZone are still just awful. It's not really usable on a big screen, or while standing anywhere close to a larger TV.

I often wonder what Comcast's source material is. It seems like they're taking a source of 18 mbps 1080i MPEG2, and recompressing. It sure looks like double-compression. But that could just be the clearly-too-low 3mbps rate being used, too.

nickk
Silicondust
Posts: 14993
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2004 9:39 am

Re: Stage 2?

Postby nickk » Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:05 pm

After more tests I can show APL has additional encoding problems in the source feed.

First I noticed what looked line our deinterlacer messing up every now and again.
Then I noticed the same problem on Comcast.

So I ran a test using field-drop deinterlacing (ie perfect deinterlacing)... and yep, somehow APL is messing up the interlace encoding every now and again.

wellthatsnotgood
Posts: 502
Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2011 6:55 pm

Re: Stage 2?

Postby wellthatsnotgood » Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:51 pm

I really wish cable* providers would start sending out 1080p feeds, already. Interlacing really needs to go the way of the dodo.

*OTA broadcasters would be great too, but I can understand they wouldn't want to provide a higher resolution than they broadcast. It would also be nice if they would broadcasted in 1080p, but despite 1080p60 H.264 being allowed since 2008, it'll probably have to wait until ATSC 3.0.

ACraigo
Posts: 302
Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2018 3:32 pm
Location: Deep Canyon in WV (by God)

Re: Stage 2?

Postby ACraigo » Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:50 am

Here's a good reddit to ponder over while we wait for SD to decide to de-interlace their 'Progressive' material...:
https://www.reddit.com/r/television/com ... broadcast/

Zorg
Posts: 82
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2018 10:56 am

Re: Stage 2?

Postby Zorg » Fri Oct 12, 2018 6:49 am

I appreciate the update, Nickk! Thank you.

Very interesting to get some details about the tests and what you & the SD team are going through.

Sammy2
Posts: 453
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2012 11:49 am

Re: Stage 2?

Postby Sammy2 » Fri Oct 12, 2018 7:32 am

Can you just incorporate madishi's smooth motion renderer that is in madVR?

Sammy2
Posts: 453
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2012 11:49 am

Re: Stage 2?

Postby Sammy2 » Fri Oct 12, 2018 7:33 am

Or for those of us with 24Hz / 120Hz TV's how about just have a option to pass the stream and we handle on our end?


Return to “HDHomeRun Premium TV”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: dgronceski, jasonthemann, NYPlayer, timstephens24 and 6 guests