Win10 HDHR app No Audio

Help and support for HDHomeRun DVR and HDHomeRun software for Windows 10, Mac, Android, XBox, etc.
TBR
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Re: Win10 HDHR app No Audio

Post by TBR »

jasonl wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 9:07 pm PCM is just plain old regular audio. There is nothing to add for that, as it's just a basic part of the OS and has been for as long as computers have had sound cards. If your system isn't even playing that, then you've somehow mangled the audio path, which I've heard is relatively easy to do on some of these Asus boards. I'm using a different B550-F board, and there's a very specific set of steps I had to follow when I first set it up to wipe out the automatic drivers that Windows installed and put in the Asus-specific ones to make everything work right. And I had to disable automatic driver updates from Windows Update, because otherwise Windows Update trashes the vendor-specific drivers and replaces them with the generic chip manufacturer ones the next time the chip manufacturer pushes a new version to Windows Update.
There is one thing to add to that:

No other applications/programs have a problem playing audio on this machine.

Why does SD expect the entirety of their user base to be heavily involved in audio/video processing? Floating-point PCM is only useful for processing past 0 dB, which is not part of normal consumer standards. And I'm too old and deaf to care about what people think they hear after blasting their auditory nerves with excessive volumes for years.

I'm only trying to watch television broadcasts here, not run a sound studio. It's fine if the HDHR app wants to support audiophiles, but SD really might want to code to include the remainder of their potential consumer base. It would also seem that PCM as a basic part of the OS is an invalid assumption given the current technology level and breadth of applications.

TBR
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Re: Win10 HDHR app No Audio

Post by TBR »

One more tidbit:

The Roku Express HDHR app also refuses to provide audio (on any tuned channel) to an Insignia TV if it is on "stereo." The system sounds (and accessibility narrative) do work. The TV is capable of outputting PCM, BTW, but I wonder if it's capable of receiving it.

Only after I convinced the Roku Express to output "Auto (DD)" did I get the audio.

Perhaps PCM is not the "standard format" that Wikipedia professes, especially since most sources refer to it as a method of converting analog to digital?

nickk
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Re: Win10 HDHR app No Audio

Post by nickk »

TBR wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 1:13 pm One more tidbit:

The Roku Express HDHR app also refuses to provide audio (on any tuned channel) to an Insignia TV if it is on "stereo." The system sounds (and accessibility narrative) do work. The TV is capable of outputting PCM, BTW, but I wonder if it's capable of receiving it.

Only after I convinced the Roku Express to output "Auto (DD)" did I get the audio.

Perhaps PCM is not the "standard format" that Wikipedia professes, especially since most sources refer to it as a method of converting analog to digital?
That is by (Roku's) design. Roku products do not decode AC3 audio instead passing it through for the TV to decode it.

Nick

TBR
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Re: Win10 HDHR app No Audio

Post by TBR »

nickk wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 1:29 pm That is by (Roku's) design. Roku products do not decode AC3 audio instead passing it through for the TV to decode it.

Nick
Same perspective as above. All other Roku apps had audio even when the output was set to "stereo." HDHomeRun app had no audio.

You don't sense a problem here???

kyl416
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Re: Win10 HDHR app No Audio

Post by kyl416 »

Roku devices don't include a native AC-3 decoder and instead rely on your TV or AVR/Soundbar to do the decoding. The "channels" on Roku are just navigation skins that pass the media to Roku's internal player. The Roku's internal MPEG-2 decoder is also very sensitive to any signal imperfections and crashes if error correction needs to kick in on marginal signals. Roku doesn't allow 3rd party developers to include their own alternative player or codec libraries like you can on Android and iOS to deal with devices that don't support AC-3, you can only support the formats and codecs their internal player supports.

Streaming apps like Netflix, Hulu and Amazon Prime can workaround this by offering alternate AAC streams when AC-3/Dolby Digital passthru is disabled. But the HDHomeRun is only able to deliver the audio streams provided by your OTA station or cable provider, which is AC-3 audio for all ATSC 1.0 channels and most HD digital cable channels, or MPEG-2 audio for most SD digital cable channels. The 2015 and 2017 Nvidia Shields have a similar limitation when it comes to AC-3, but in this case they're Android based so they can work around it by supplying their own AC-3 codec with the app.
Last edited by kyl416 on Sat May 15, 2021 3:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

nickk
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Re: Win10 HDHR app No Audio

Post by nickk »

TBR wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 2:53 pm Same perspective as above. All other Roku apps had audio even when the output was set to "stereo." HDHomeRun app had no audio.
You don't sense a problem here???
The TV broadcasters in the US send audio in compressed AC3 format as required by the ATSC standard.
Everything else you are playing on Roku is from the internet using compressed AAC audio.
Roku sounds are most likely uncompressed PCM.

Roku devices support decoding AAC audio to PCM before delivering to the TV. The term "stereo" in the output settings means "stereo PCM".

Roku devices do not support decoding AC3 audio to PCM. In order for compressed AC3 audio to work on Roku you have to configure the Roku to output in "DD" mode. This configures Roku to pass the AC3 audio to the TV still compressed for the TV to decode to PCM.

Any content that is AC3 audio will require the output to be set to "DD" mode. This isn't specific to the HDHomeRun app. The reason everything else works is that broadcast TV is generally only Roku-relevant medium that uses AC3 audio compression.

Note that this is very specific to Roku. This situation isn't relevant to the Windows app as the Windows app supports decoding AC3 audio.

Nick

TBR
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Re: Win10 HDHR app No Audio

Post by TBR »

nickk wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 3:14 pm
TBR wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 2:53 pm Same perspective as above. All other Roku apps had audio even when the output was set to "stereo." HDHomeRun app had no audio.
You don't sense a problem here???
The TV broadcasters in the US send audio in compressed AC3 format as required by the ATSC standard.
Everything else you are playing on Roku is from the internet using compressed AAC audio.
....
Roku devices do not support decoding AC3 audio to PCM. In order for compressed AC3 audio to work on Roku you have to configure the Roku to output in "DD" mode. This configures Roku to pass the AC3 audio to the TV still compressed for the TV to decode to PCM.
...
Note that this is very specific to Roku. This situation isn't relevant to the Windows app as the Windows app supports decoding AC3 audio.
I am looking at this from the perspective of a "consumer." (Doing my own programming and electronics repair when necessary over the past 50+ years does color my opinions, however.) Rather than putting in the months of research and development to build my own ATSC 3.0 tuner, I bought the Connect 4K. The hardware itself seems to work well enough, but the job's not done until the broadcasts are displayed.

Since I don't have access to the source codes to "fix it myself," I assume you are protecting your intellectual property rights in an effort to preserve your business interests. Promoting consumer adoption of your products is also part of your business interests, then. But us dumb consumers really don't care about the formats: we just want to watch TV.

Assumptions were made that all Windows devices supported the desired PCM formats. Apparently that is not correct. What can be done about it?

The problem with the Roku Express was discovered when I moved it from a smart TV to a "dumb" TV (incidentally, Roku reverted the audio setting to stereo which killed the sound until I set the HDMI output to Dolby Digital). If the Roku app requires specific settings by the consumer, then somehow it must tell us what to do. What can be done about it?

nickk
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Re: Win10 HDHR app No Audio

Post by nickk »

The complication - the latest app is already outputting the same format that the older apps used to output and we have not been able to reproduce the problem you are seeing.

We will discuss internally options for how to work with you on this.

Nick

TBR
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Re: Win10 HDHR app No Audio

Post by TBR »

nickk wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 10:36 am The complication - the latest app is already outputting the same format that the older apps used to output and we have not been able to reproduce the problem you are seeing.
A few points to check first, then, especially since Windows itself has been changing and may have (accidentally or purposefully) eliminated the app's output stream handler on this machine:
1) The available audio option settings in the app have changed: what effect might that have?
2) Are the app's audio outputs typical or atypical of other apps (as indicated above, the Roku app is atypical)?
3) Is the error message window ("This device does not support PCM audio...") included in your code and being generated by the app or is it posted by Windows, etc.? If it is an external error message, different corrective measures seem appropriate.

nickk
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Re: Win10 HDHR app No Audio

Post by nickk »

We may have found the problem.

Please install the latest Windows 10 app release when it shows in the store in a few hours.

Nick

TBR
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Re: Win10 HDHR app No Audio

Post by TBR »

nickk wrote: Wed May 26, 2021 12:31 pm We may have found the problem.

Please install the latest Windows 10 app release when it shows in the store in a few hours.

Nick
Unfortunately, all that it did is give a new error message in the pop-up window: "This device does not support sound"

Meanwhile, the Windows Store chimed away as it updated other apps.

Would you consider emailing me the source code language and the audio function call? At least I could entertain myself looking up possibilities. :)

nickk
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Re: Win10 HDHR app No Audio

Post by nickk »

Can you please try the 20210527 release that just went live.

Nick

TBR
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Re: Win10 HDHR app No Audio

Post by TBR »

nickk wrote: Wed May 26, 2021 9:09 pm Can you please try the 20210527 release that just went live.

Nick
Same error message.

If you know what the Store's version number is, it might help identification in the future. The store doesn't display the date-code identification.

foxbat121
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Re: Win10 HDHR app No Audio

Post by foxbat121 »

The app, in the settings screen, does report the date coded version number.

TBR
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Re: Win10 HDHR app No Audio

Post by TBR »

foxbat121 wrote: Thu May 27, 2021 12:30 pm The app, in the settings screen, does report the date coded version number.
But that can't be seen until the app is already downloaded from the store and launched.

Possibly related to the audio problem, the app is now too unstable for the guide to function (I have to type in channel numbers since I can't click channels) and I'm not at all certain I can even access the settings page.

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