No Internet, No App????

Help and support for HDHomeRun DVR and HDHomeRun software for Windows 10, Mac, Android, XBox, etc.
TimeBandit
Posts: 2
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2021 1:42 pm

Re: No Internet, No App????

Post by TimeBandit »

BigLou1122 wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 9:03 am Funny, because the app worked on my old Galaxy S5 phone, but not on any newer devices.?? OTA TV should work without internet.
Okay everyone, I can see that some of you out there don’t get the connection (excuse the pun) between no-Internet (WAN outage) equals no local content like live OTA streaming from the local net tuner or DVR recording. Not picking on the above poster, but I’ll try to break it down into layman’s terms ---> the act of opening/launching the app is the weak-link here. Without real Internet, it just won't even open - period.
Think of the HDHomerun App like a “Live App”, it still has to ALWAYS go do a quick “Internet run” to get some last-minute data/code/rendering needed to finally open the App. Sounds dumb, but there’s a reason – it’s called React (as mentioned back on post #4 - that no one reads), which is that "live" Internet piece of their App.

Now my personal thoughts on this, as a consumer … MAJOR disappointment! Simply a “bad call” to use a Internet-dependent App to host Intranet-content, considering a failure to launch the App results in denial of service accessing local LAN content not coming from said Internet (I.e. OTA streaming and/or previous recordings). A quick read-up on React’s FAQ’s … I did not realize Apps could be written/authored so quick and “lightweight”. So right now, the HDHomerun App is purely Internet-dependent, because it leverages these “React” back-end technologies, which must be contacted each and every time one opens the App.
I get it, SiliconDust chose that direction to get “something” viable out there on the market now, and React enables quick and easy app development (as opposed to a real local App that completely downloads and runs on your streaming device). However, I guess this was a calculated risk, in that yes they did indeed get an App out there fast, it does the job... yet this development route then shackles that app to an online-only existence, and so here we are, my ISP is down, obviously I can't stream my favorite services, that's a given, yet not even own the HDExtend tuner when it's right here capturing OTA content to my own LAN !!
:x

According to the SiliconDust remarks so far (and seriously thank you for coming onto this thread and letting us know you are indeed addressing this issue), it sounds like they are possibly maybe still developing a “normal” local App (one that fully loads and runs on our streaming devices naively), and that should then solve this so-called offline DOS problem. But until then, well … I’d split an extra coax line directly into the back of your main TV (bypassing everything) so there is at least one device in your house to get the local new channel up.
Last edited by TimeBandit on Fri Jan 22, 2021 4:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.

titantractor271
Posts: 49
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2021 9:27 am

Re: No Internet, No App????

Post by titantractor271 »

I've been only have listening to this post, but I kind of agree with the concern of no-internet - no-app. Is it only the SD Homerun application that does not work? Would I still be able to control the tuner through the APIs and stream my channels without internet? Would my DLNA TV be able to tune the various streams and drive the tuner? I hope so... I may do some testing. I'll go into listen mode for a while.... :(

Note: My guess is the HomeRun application is seeking to get the images for all the shows and without it, it shuts down.

rpcameron
Posts: 987
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2016 9:55 am
x 4

Re: No Internet, No App????

Post by rpcameron »

titantractor271 wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 3:09 pm I've been only have listening to this post, but I kind of agree with the concern of no-internet - no-app. Is it only the SD Homerun application that does not work? Would I still be able to control the tuner through the APIs and stream my channels without internet? Would my DLNA TV be able to tune the various streams and drive the tuner? I hope so... I may do some testing. I'll go into listen mode for a while.... :(

Note: My guess is the HomeRun application is seeking to get the images for all the shows and without it, it shuts down.
It's just this app. Other apps (Channels, Tvheadend, MythTV, etc.) all work fine without the internet.

Also, no, the HDHomeRun app is not just getting images. It needs to download the entire user interface code at each launch. That is why their app will not function without internet connectivity: it has no UI without it.

TimeBandit
Posts: 2
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2021 1:42 pm

Re: No Internet, No App????

Post by TimeBandit »

rpcameron wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 3:38 pm It's just this app. Other apps (Channels, Tvheadend, MythTV, etc.) all work fine without the internet.
Also, no, the HDHomeRun app is not just getting images. It needs to download the entire user interface code at each launch. That is why their app will not function without internet connectivity: it has no UI without it.
Speaking out loud ... I can't help but wonder why such a paradigm like React, does not also have some type of local caching mechanism that stores the last known-good rendering instructions, which could be then referenced again if the servers cannot be reached - given the local JSX has not changed that is.

jasonl
Expert
Posts: 15543
Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2007 9:23 pm
x 43

Re: No Internet, No App????

Post by jasonl »

The app used to do that, but then there would be problems where it would take several days and multiple app restarts to actually retrieve and display UI changes, so it was disabled and the app always loads it fresh. I think I remember SD at some point finding and fixing something that was at least partially responsible, but they haven't re-enabled caching, so either it didn't fully resolve the issue or it just hasn't gotten high enough up the priority list to put in the time to test every platform the app runs on to make sure it's completely fixed.

titantractor271
Posts: 49
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2021 9:27 am

Re: No Internet, No App????

Post by titantractor271 »

rpcameron wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 3:38 pm It's just this app. Other apps (Channels, Tvheadend, MythTV, etc.) all work fine without the internet.
Thanks! That's good news as I would like to plan for power outages.
rpcameron wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 3:38 pm Also, no, the HDHomeRun app is not just getting images.
thx.

xbakesx
Posts: 1
Joined: Wed May 27, 2015 9:03 am

Re: No Internet, No App????

Post by xbakesx »

Point 1: Just more noise. This is very annoying behavior and if you need more people to complain to prioritize it higher, count me in.

Point 2: I get the work around is very simple: use VLC or something that doesn't act this way... That's great except you'd never know the app requires internet until you hit the problem... Then guess who can't go download VLC? Now you're sunk and the simple work around doesn't work.

In conclusion: up vote, please fix soon 😁

cx1
Posts: 5
Joined: Sun Oct 20, 2013 9:13 am

Re: No Internet, No App????

Post by cx1 »

If you are on Win10 the Movies & TV app will play the channels. Browse to the folder in Windows Explorer under your drives. Right click and open with.

That aside this is idiotic to require and break functionality of a LAN device when no internet is present.

CordCutter2017
Posts: 2
Joined: Mon Mar 08, 2021 10:19 am

Re: No Internet, No App????

Post by CordCutter2017 »

I am withdrawing my original post.
Last edited by CordCutter2017 on Wed Mar 10, 2021 2:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

FoodLioon
Posts: 24
Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2020 9:22 pm

Re: No Internet, No App????

Post by FoodLioon »

CordCutter2017 wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 1:12 am So folks, the issue is much deeper for a device marketed as a 'cord cutter' than SiliconDust's App not working without WAN access (after 4 hours). I have the app installed on my Android TV, I don't use it but it's there for me to keep tabs on the ATSC 3.0 stations in my area (nothing's in 4K yet). I use NextPVR and get my EPG from SchedulesDirect. All my SillyCon Disst tuner needs to do is receive a signal from the antenna in my attic and 'spit' data out over my LAN. It's just a LAN device, no internet, WAN not needed, just a local area network. N O P E !! not true and I'm not happy about it either... Here's the deal, this is 100% repeatable and I'm not one of these posters that start a sentence with, "I've never done this but this is what I think" I hate those, just don't post. Anyway, with NextPVR in settings under devices I see 4 HDHR devices (0,1,2 & 3) my setup works flawlessly by the way. I don't like web enabled toys calling home to Mamma especially ones that don't need WAN access in the first place so I block WAN access in my router individually for those hardware gizmos. It is true that their app after 4 hours will no longer work w/o WAN enabled, big whoop! couldn't care less my NextPVR server keeps hummin' along U N L E S S I turn off the HomeRun (I have the newer 4K model) and turn it back on, mind you still the only thing blocked is WAN access, then all four devices are listed as "unavailable" and I have no live TV (in NextPVR, VLC, kodi, SD's app, nothing, no where, period). Now, I go back into my router, enable WAN access for my HomeRun's LAN IP, power cycle the HomeRun and PRESTO all four devices are back and I'm watching OTA in Kodi. The long short; after 4 hours of no WAN access and turning the HomeRun off then back on it is now a $200 brick that is, until it can talk to Mamma again. Now let me give you a practical application to all of this. You have an RV and a Mohu Leaf Antenna, you're going camping for the weekend, there's no internet but you grab your spare router (for LAN only), laptop and your HomeRun to be able to watch some TV after fishing all day... not gonna happen... it's not an HD HomeRun but rather a ND StrikeOut. My point of this post is that it's not the coding in the app that's the problem it's the coding in the device.
This is not true at least for the HDHR5. I've run it on an air gapped network using only NextPVR+PSIP EPG data without issue.

CordCutter2017
Posts: 2
Joined: Mon Mar 08, 2021 10:19 am

Re: No Internet, No App????

Post by CordCutter2017 »

It is true and 100% repeatable !! Months ago I discovered that if my again "WAN" VPN client (in my router) were turned on before I started up the NextPVR server in Windows7, Windows10, Linux, and running in a Docker container the devices would show "unavailable" I would disconnect my VPN connection to Nord, turn the server(s) back on and they would be available. It took me months to find what was causing this and to be able to repeat it EVERY time. Now fast forward months later, I upgrade to the HomeRun 4K (aka HDHR5) and i discover what I posted last night. Do your homework BEFORE you call someone a liar, I did. By the way my router is an Asus AX88U so I'm not running some 10yo router that is f'ing up the works. Oh, as an added note if, I turn the VPN client on AFTER the NextPVR server is running it remains unaffected atleast until the HDHR5 is power cycled.

FoodLioon
Posts: 24
Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2020 9:22 pm

Re: No Internet, No App????

Post by FoodLioon »

CordCutter2017 wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 11:50 am It is true and 100% repeatable !! Months ago I discovered that if my again "WAN" VPN client (in my router) were turned on before I started up the NextPVR server in Windows7, Windows10, Linux, and running in a Docker container the devices would show "unavailable" I would disconnect my VPN connection to Nord, turn the server(s) back on and they would be available. It took me months to find what was causing this and to be able to repeat it EVERY time. Now fast forward months later, I upgrade to the HomeRun 4K (aka HDHR5) and i discover what I posted last night. Do your homework BEFORE you call someone a liar, I did. By the way my router is an Asus AX88U so I'm not running some 10yo router that is f'ing up the works. Oh, as an added note if, I turn the VPN client on AFTER the NextPVR server is running it remains unaffected atleast until the HDHR5 is power cycled.
Sorry, I should have put my entire model number - HDHR5-2US. What you posted is not true for the HDHR5-2US running 20210224 firmware. It can be used without internet.

NedS
Silicondust
Posts: 1987
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 12:38 pm
x 53

No Internet, No App????

Post by NedS »

All HDHomeRun tuners ever made will work without any internet connection. The HDHomeRun will happily stream video over the LAN, without ever seeing internet, ever. Even firmware updates can be done offline using a downloadable file. We have many customers who use normal off-the-shelf HDHomeRun consumer models for commercial monitoring applications, and have to isolate the HDHomeRun from the internet due to security policies in a commercial/corporate network, and things work just fine.

When the HDHomeRun communicates with our servers, it does so for the purposes of getting TV guide data used in our app (but not normally used in third party apps such as NextPVR, as they use their own guide source), checking for new firmware, and some functions related to our own DVR service. On HDHR5-4K models, the unit can also check to see if it is a "dev" unit or not, to enable some extra features in the firmware (and once enabled, even those dev units will work offline). We also have a "send diagnostic data" option for troubleshooting, but this is off by default, and will automatically turn off after 10 days if someone forgets to turn it back off.

The HDHomeRun app also communicates with our servers for additional things, including some of the UI, but that's unrelated to what's being discussed here.

The point being, the HDHomeRun does not disable functionality when offline. If there is an issue, it would be considered a bug that we would fix, but I have not been able to reproduce this issue. I think it is more likely that something is going on with your VPN, or possibly with the NextPVR configuration, that is causing the issue. I believe you are seeing a real issue, but that it is not an issue with the HDHomeRun hardware.

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