HDHRBevo support issue

Help and support for HDHomeRun DVR and HDHomeRun software for Windows 10, Mac, Android, XBox, etc.
nateb
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Re: HDHRBevo support issue

Postby nateb » Wed Dec 12, 2018 11:22 am

It's all the same issue. Data loss between the DVR and the player.

On a sidenote, it looks as though you may have only enabled logging on the DVR and the HDHomeRun and not in the apps. If the issue is being caused by what we think, then it may not be necessary to enable app logging, but if you want us to take a look there too visit viewtopic.php?t=69066 and scroll down to the section labeled, "Apps."

HDHRBevo
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Re: HDHRBevo support issue

Postby HDHRBevo » Wed Dec 12, 2018 12:04 pm

The logs show that there was some data loss occurring between the HDHomeRun and the DVR at the time that occurred, and presumably also some between the DVR and the client since it happened at the same time. This would typically point to either a network issue on the DVR PC, or possibly something running on the PC at that time that prevented it from handling the data in a timely fashion.
My SD DVR is a dedicated Win 10 (1803) PC for media center functions. The few applications installed are those that support the video processing functions. The CPU is a quad core Q9550 running at 2.83GHz (see image). It is using the Marvell ethernet port on the MB. Its old hardware, but still should be more than capable to doing the job as tested on 12/9 (above post). All playback comes from the hard drive on this PC. There were no events at the time of the freezes that would indicated a LAN/CPU issue (see image).

Jasonl
Help me understand my Points of Confusion please:
1. Your point of “some data loss occurring between the HDHomeRun and the DVR…”. Playback at the time, was coming from the SD DVR hard disk so why would a data loss between the HDHomeRun and DVR cause the playback to have a hard freeze?
2. Relative to question #1, there is/was no ethernet involved with the playback at the time of the freeze since playback was NOT being viewed in real time.
3. Comprehending questions 1 & 2, I believe, the only major application running at the time was the SD DVR function taking the video stream from the HDHomeRun and writing it to my SD DVR hard disk (while playback progresses). How can you be certain that the “data loss” you saw was not caused by the HDHomeRun/SD DVR program?
4. Making a leap of faith by assuming for purposes of discussion, that the data loss was in fact what caused the playback to freeze, I must ask the question why the playback error handling would allow such a condition to hard freeze the playback?
5. Further, why would said error handling, bounce back to the main menu, with no checkpoint of where the playback left off?
6. It is hard to understand why years of using this same hardware with MS WMC recording and playback never had freezes and skips/jumps worked just fine.
7. What do you make of the others who have reported this same issue (see referenced thread, post #3)?

Nateb
It's all the same issue. Data loss between the DVR and the player.
You confirmed that, right? So, a separate set of hardware/software, this time using the LAN for video playback, has the same “data loss” hard freeze, at a different point in time? You and Jasonl make it sound like you are comfortable with that explanation and have volleyed the ball back into my court. If so, the answer to #4 above will be of great interest. If not, #4 is still of interest, but more importantly, what are the next steps?

Thanks
Gary

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nateb
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Re: HDHRBevo support issue

Postby nateb » Wed Dec 12, 2018 1:39 pm

It's fairly hard to answer these questions until we've gotten more info, which is why we're asking to see if there are CPU/RAM spikes when the freeze happens. And we can't really know 4 until you've enabled app loggging, as I noted. That is probably a bug, but hard to say without more info.

In theory you shouldn't need to test this during a football game. It should reproduce pretty easily with pretty much any recording.

HDHRBevo
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Re: HDHRBevo support issue

Postby HDHRBevo » Wed Dec 12, 2018 2:12 pm

It's fairly hard to answer these questions until we've gotten more info, which is why we're asking to see if there are CPU/RAM spikes when the freeze happens. And we can't really know 4 until you've enabled app loggging, as I noted. That is probably a bug, but hard to say without more info.

In theory you shouldn't need to test this during a football game. It should reproduce pretty easily with pretty much any recording.
Right. So as I expected that ball is back in my court, trying endlessly to convince your development guys they have a hard to shoot bug. You and I both know that once I do that, assuming that's even possible, they will still need to reproduce the bug in their lab. Which leads me to the point YOU made for me. That is "It should reproduce pretty easily with pretty much any recording". So why don't your "guys" do just that? I believe with all the stuff I have posted in this thread and the referenced thread, any lab worth its salt could, without difficulty, create a HW/SW environment close enough to mine to prove/disprove the problem. I mean, "if" they were motivated to do so. :(

Until SD answers my questions (above), I'm not going to jump through your futile debugging hoops. So I'm lobing the ball back in your court. While I wait, I will continue to use my Recast for FB games, and SD DVR for OTA broadcasts for commerical removal. However, I wont be quiet about my displeasure with SD software and their support. I will continue to make my case known to friends, associates, & others here and on social media. Thanks Nateb for your time and effort on this, I do very much appreciate the opportunity. Its just sad your "guys" dont have your back.

Gary

mcewinter
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Re: HDHRBevo support issue

Postby mcewinter » Wed Dec 12, 2018 2:29 pm

They easily could repro data loss but that would not explain why you are experiencing data loss. Data loss could be network issues such as cabling or network equipment. It could be a failing or shoddy hard drive for your record engine. You may want to try to eliminate some of these variables.

Help them help you

HDHRBevo
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Re: HDHRBevo support issue

Postby HDHRBevo » Wed Dec 12, 2018 2:40 pm

They easily could repro data loss but that would not explain why you are experiencing data loss. Data loss could be network issues such as cabling or network equipment. It could be a failing or shoddy hard drive for your record engine. You may want to try to eliminate some of these variables.
I'm sorry, but you clearly do not understand the issue here. What I am asking them to try to reproduce is the playback skip/fwd freeze when watching a recording before it has finished recording. And as far as helping them, I have been and am glad to do so again, but that has to be a two way street. Answer my questions so I can understand WHY what they are asking me to do is necessary and has purpose. You may want to fully read and understand the thread(s) involved here to get the history before you take sides.

Gary

mcewinter
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Re: HDHRBevo support issue

Postby mcewinter » Wed Dec 12, 2018 2:59 pm

They easily could repro data loss but that would not explain why you are experiencing data loss. Data loss could be network issues such as cabling or network equipment. It could be a failing or shoddy hard drive for your record engine. You may want to try to eliminate some of these variables.
I'm sorry, but you clearly do not understand the issue here. What I am asking them to try to reproduce is the playback skip/fwd freeze when watching a recording before it has finished recording. And as far as helping them, I have been and am glad to do so again, but that has to be a two way street. Answer my questions so I can understand WHY what they are asking me to do is necessary and has purpose. You may want to fully read and understand the thread(s) involved here to get the history before you take sides.

Gary
I'm not taking sides. I'm sorry you took as me talking down to you. You are having issues so to me it makes sense to do something at your end to address those issues.

nateb
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Re: HDHRBevo support issue

Postby nateb » Wed Dec 12, 2018 3:31 pm

Allow me to be a bit more clear. If we find a bug, there is no timeline for when that bug may be fixed. The reason you are being asked to do these things is so we can see if you can find a solution that can happen immediately without requiring any software updates by working around the bug. And that only assumes there is a bug. It’s possible some combination of software and hardware unrelated to HDHomeRun is causing this.

When I said you could replicate it easily, I meant that and only that. It would be far easier to use your existing hardware to replicate than it would be to try to pull together random hardware to attempt to make make the bug happen here. This is why we try to make it easy to enable logging.

HDHRBevo
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Re: HDHRBevo support issue

Postby HDHRBevo » Wed Dec 12, 2018 3:57 pm

Allow me to be a bit more clear. If we find a bug, there is no timeline for when that bug may be fixed. The reason you are being asked to do these things is so we can see if you can find a solution that can happen immediately without requiring any software updates by working around the bug. If you are not interested in solving this problem quickly, then we can close this ticket now and wait until such time as someone on the team can reproduce it.
Nateb, you were clear before. You want me to jump through hoops, without helping me understand why its necessary. For a work-around, I have one. Recast. I believe strongly this is a coding problem that development needs to address. As for closing the ticket, if you insist on closing the ticket without a fix, then I have no control over that. It will simply further harden my view of SD support and its commitment to fixing issues. My guess is "someone on the team" (aka your "guys") are all busy with the new interface and ALL tickets will be closed until and unless they can be reproduced under the new code base, if/when it rolls out. Makes sense. What I would do. Sure makes it rough on you front line folks though.

Gary

nateb
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Re: HDHRBevo support issue

Postby nateb » Wed Dec 12, 2018 4:02 pm

There’s no evidence that the cause of this problem is UI based.

Whether you choose to pursue is, of course, your decision.

Edit: That might not have been clear. I’m saying you have total control over whether to close the ticket. We need your help to help you. If you elect not to give that help, then our hands are tied.

rpcameron
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Re: HDHRBevo support issue

Postby rpcameron » Wed Dec 12, 2018 4:34 pm

This is sounding eerily similar to the ethernet issue that plagued a few users with Primes for 18 months or so ... difficulty of getting responses from support, and support not necessarily seeing it as a priority or a bug because they can't immediately replicate the issue.

I wish you luck in getting some resolution/relief.

jasonl
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Re: HDHRBevo support issue

Postby jasonl » Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:32 pm

The only way to diagnose client-side issues is to have diagnostic logs from the client, which were not enabled. We did see in the logs we do have that there was packet loss occurring between the HDHomeRun and DVR. Had there been packet loss at the time of the recording, then when you played back that recording, you're going to see those same issues, because that data is still going to be missing.

A lot of the early Marvell network drivers were troublesome. Not as bad as a certain Taiwanese competitor, but it always took some work to get those working optimally, and I would know because that's what my old WMC PC used before I got fed up and put an Intel card in. I would suggest installing the last Marvell driver version, which you can get from them at https://www.marvell.com/support/downloads/search.do. I would also suggest going through the packet loss troubleshooting at viewtopic.php?t=5877, particularly disabling the Windows network throttling as well as the interrupt moderation and offload settings on the NIC.

HDHRBevo
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Re: HDHRBevo support issue

Postby HDHRBevo » Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:36 am

A lot of the early Marvell network drivers were troublesome. Not as bad as a certain Taiwanese competitor, but it always took some work to get those working optimally, and I would know because that's what my old WMC PC used before I got fed up and put an Intel card in. I would suggest installing the last Marvell driver version, which you can get from them at https://www.marvell.com/support/downloads/search.do. I would also suggest going through the packet loss troubleshooting at viewtopic.php?t=5877, particularly disabling the Windows network throttling as well as the interrupt moderation and offload settings on the NIC.
Thanks much jasonl, I too have had trouble in the past with Marvell network drivers/ports on motherboards. I have disabled the interrupt moderation settings and changed the network throttling setting as suggested. I did NOT update the driver as it seems I already have the most recent driver that is on the Marvell download site (Win8), But, I will also install a new Rosewill (RC411v3) NIC that I had on the shelf for backup. I will setup the debugging settings and retest tonight (& Saturday/Sunday) and let you know. Your explanation and suggestions are greatly appreciated.
The only way to diagnose client-side issues is to have diagnostic logs from the client, which were not enabled. We did see in the logs we do have that there was packet loss occurring between the HDHomeRun and DVR. Had there been packet loss at the time of the recording, then when you played back that recording, you're going to see those same issues, because that data is still going to be missing.
I apologize for missing the app debug setting in your referenced guidelines on the prior test, totally my bad. Further, there seems a good chance I will end up with egg on my face regarding where the "technical issue" actually lies. :oops: If so, I will own up.

That said, I still think an answer to my prior question (#4) is fair and appropriate (repeated here):
4. Making a leap of faith by assuming for purposes of discussion, that the data loss was in fact what caused the playback to freeze, I must ask the question why the playback error handling would allow such a condition to hard freeze the playback?

It just seems that for a data loss, regardless of the cause, to freeze playback, etc., smacks of sloppy and/or lazy coding. :roll:

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techpro2004
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Re: HDHRBevo support issue

Postby techpro2004 » Thu Dec 13, 2018 1:35 pm

On a side note, I have had issues with various brands of old nics causing issues with the hdhomerun dvr before they cause issues with the rest of the system. I also have run into stability issues with client systems that use a kingston hyperx predator ssd. The controller in the hyperx predator is from marvell. (switching to a samsung ssd fixed my stability issues) I hope this helps.

HDHRBevo
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Re: HDHRBevo support issue

Postby HDHRBevo » Thu Dec 13, 2018 1:50 pm

Interesting! Thanks for the feedback. My (boot) drive is an AData SSD, no Kingston on this machine. The recording device is a regular Toshiba. But I do have a hyperx in a laptop, so your point is well taken. If the NIC adjustment(s) do no resolve the issue, then hopefully the App diagnostics will help SD better determine the offending device/program.

Thanks
Gary


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