Quick status update & AMD GPU dilemma - 20170127

Help and support for HDHomeRun DVR and HDHomeRun software for Windows 10, Mac, Android, XBox, etc.
numus
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Re: Quick status update & AMD GPU dilemma - 20170127

Postby numus » Tue Jan 31, 2017 9:19 am

....
Been a longtime supporter of AMD... Looks like the deinterlace option has been dead since the "advent" of crimson.
[FD: I neither run Windows, nor have any AMD cards] If one believes the hardware references, the hardware may still be capable, but the entire crimson restructure reportedly removed the access to the required capability via the (previously available in CCC) advanced video controls and underlying APIs. While I can certainly understand a choice to not port all features from CCC for the first release (TTM), one would have expected AMD to restore the capability by now (should they ever intended to do so), but all good things take time (*cough* protected content path decoding/rendering *cough*).
The question comes about "Is it even worth them investing any resources into deinterlacing support?" ... The only segment of the population that care about deinterlacing are us (the cable card subscribers). Nothing else really relies on deinterlacing anymore so they probably just don't care anymore to spend the resources into it. It is pretty much a dead content standard now adays.

GGRussell
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Re: Quick status update & AMD GPU dilemma - 20170127

Postby GGRussell » Tue Jan 31, 2017 9:29 am

I've noticed several Charter channels going to from 1080i to 720p. Personally, I find 720p worse but maybe they are compressing it more.

gtb
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Re: Quick status update & AMD GPU dilemma - 20170127

Postby gtb » Tue Jan 31, 2017 9:39 am

... It is pretty much a dead content standard now adays.
I would say more deprecated (for future content) than dead. OTA, DVDs (480i), and lots of existing downloadable content, still have to be deinterlaced, but since the future of content delivery is changing, most of that is now done elsewhere during the initial content curation process (Netflix, for example, transcodes everything (actually to lots of formats so it can select the right one for the device) before you access it, and none of the results are interlaced).

In any case, I had thought that Crimson with their "profiles" had added the ability to set various things such as "Steady Video" and/or "Fluid Motion" which the press blurb mentioned included advanced de-interlacing (but, again, I do not have any way to test).

destrekor
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Re: Quick status update & AMD GPU dilemma - 20170127

Postby destrekor » Tue Jan 31, 2017 9:39 am

....
Been a longtime supporter of AMD... Looks like the deinterlace option has been dead since the "advent" of crimson.
[FD: I neither run Windows, nor have any AMD cards] If one believes the hardware references, the hardware may still be capable, but the entire crimson restructure reportedly removed the access to the required capability via the (previously available in CCC) advanced video controls and underlying APIs. While I can certainly understand a choice to not port all features from CCC for the first release (TTM), one would have expected AMD to restore the capability by now (should they ever intended to do so), but all good things take time (*cough* protected content path decoding/rendering *cough*).
The question comes about "Is it even worth them investing any resources into deinterlacing support?" ... The only segment of the population that care about deinterlacing are us (the cable card subscribers). Nothing else really relies on deinterlacing anymore so they probably just don't care anymore to spend the resources into it. It is pretty much a dead content standard now adays.
Well it is usually an invisible issue to most users. Plenty of channels are still broadcast with interlacing, specifically HD channels with 1080i instead of 1080p or 720p.
But most consumer equipment hides it, converting it as necessary. For most users, the TV takes care of it with no problems, the user has no idea it's even interlaced... may not even know what interlacing is!

We are a small market segment, where we have PCs doing the work, and well, they've usually just done it without any problems just the same. Nick made me remember that Windows will always send a progressive signal, so any incoming signal that is interlaced must be dealt with through software/hardware. It's an odd quirk that AMD's GPU drivers seem to be presenting with the draw method chosen by SD. Never experienced any issues with WMC and interlaced channels, so it's got to be some issue with the specific draw method and driver combination.

I've never had a problem with the Radeon HD 7000-series card I've got in my HTPC - I just chose something with good hardware decoding and that was cheap enough but could still play basic games. It might be time to upgrade in a few months, but with Vega coming out, it'll be hard to turn away from AMD for a new card purchase. But it depends on how long it takes to release the lower-end Vega chips, as it'll be likely they'll release the top-end gaming cards first (and the workstation and server models).

I'm not sure if AMD will be receptive enough with SD to address the issue with a driver update, considering it is such a small segment of users that need it - part likely why the feature is gone and hasn't come back yet, just not enough user feedback clamoring for it. Probably an overlooked feature when they made the new Crimson package.
Actually, I take that back. There's been discussion about the multiple missing features once available in CCC for video color and quality... since late 2015. So it's still not there. I haven't dug around with the Crimson panel on my gaming desktop, but I never updated the drivers on my HTPC. I love the Crimson panel, but they still have the CCC-style panel for some advanced settings. Those still haven't been migrated, and settings apparently have not been added back. A year and a half later...

It's odd, because Radeon used to be the king of HTPC GPUs, and these features were vitally important. I guess they just see that user segment as a dying breed, considering streaming and video-specific devices like Roku have taken the spotlight from HTPC and similar use-cases.

Oh, and that may very well be why my WMC still has great picture on all channels? It may not have anything to do with draw method, which was frankly me talking out of my ass! Whoops. I just still have that feature in my AMD drivers, and perhaps WMC would be equally impacted by the removal of the interlacing component of the drivers.

Soooo, looks like I'm not updating the GPU drivers on my HTPC - I still have CCC in all it's old-looking glory! lol

destrekor
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Re: Quick status update & AMD GPU dilemma - 20170127

Postby destrekor » Tue Jan 31, 2017 9:42 am

... It is pretty much a dead content standard now adays.
I would say more deprecated (for future content) than dead. OTA, DVDs (480i), and lots of existing downloadable content, still have to be deinterlaced, but since the future of content delivery is changing, most of that is now done elsewhere during the initial content curation process (Netflix, for example, transcodes everything (actually to lots of formats so it can select the right one for the device) before you access it, and none of the results are interlaced).

In any case, I had thought that Crimson with their "profiles" had added the ability to set various things such as "Steady Video" and/or "Fluid Motion" which the press blurb mentioned included advanced de-interlacing (but, again, I do not have any way to test).
I'm afraid to upgrade to the Crimson drivers on my HTPC since it's all there right now! And now that I've got Windows 10 on my gaming desktop, I can't test WMC with the new drivers. Perhaps I could install some of the new DVR/View packages on my desktop and give it a shot? Can't believe I didn't think of that till just now.

numus
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Re: Quick status update & AMD GPU dilemma - 20170127

Postby numus » Tue Jan 31, 2017 10:34 am


[FD: I neither run Windows, nor have any AMD cards] If one believes the hardware references, the hardware may still be capable, but the entire crimson restructure reportedly removed the access to the required capability via the (previously available in CCC) advanced video controls and underlying APIs. While I can certainly understand a choice to not port all features from CCC for the first release (TTM), one would have expected AMD to restore the capability by now (should they ever intended to do so), but all good things take time (*cough* protected content path decoding/rendering *cough*).
The question comes about "Is it even worth them investing any resources into deinterlacing support?" ... The only segment of the population that care about deinterlacing are us (the cable card subscribers). Nothing else really relies on deinterlacing anymore so they probably just don't care anymore to spend the resources into it. It is pretty much a dead content standard now adays.
Well it is usually an invisible issue to most users. Plenty of channels are still broadcast with interlacing, specifically HD channels with 1080i instead of 1080p or 720p.
But most consumer equipment hides it, converting it as necessary. For most users, the TV takes care of it with no problems, the user has no idea it's even interlaced... may not even know what interlacing is!

We are a small market segment, where we have PCs doing the work, and well, they've usually just done it without any problems just the same. Nick made me remember that Windows will always send a progressive signal, so any incoming signal that is interlaced must be dealt with through software/hardware. It's an odd quirk that AMD's GPU drivers seem to be presenting with the draw method chosen by SD. Never experienced any issues with WMC and interlaced channels, so it's got to be some issue with the specific draw method and driver combination.

I've never had a problem with the Radeon HD 7000-series card I've got in my HTPC - I just chose something with good hardware decoding and that was cheap enough but could still play basic games. It might be time to upgrade in a few months, but with Vega coming out, it'll be hard to turn away from AMD for a new card purchase. But it depends on how long it takes to release the lower-end Vega chips, as it'll be likely they'll release the top-end gaming cards first (and the workstation and server models).

I'm not sure if AMD will be receptive enough with SD to address the issue with a driver update, considering it is such a small segment of users that need it - part likely why the feature is gone and hasn't come back yet, just not enough user feedback clamoring for it. Probably an overlooked feature when they made the new Crimson package.
Actually, I take that back. There's been discussion about the multiple missing features once available in CCC for video color and quality... since late 2015. So it's still not there. I haven't dug around with the Crimson panel on my gaming desktop, but I never updated the drivers on my HTPC. I love the Crimson panel, but they still have the CCC-style panel for some advanced settings. Those still haven't been migrated, and settings apparently have not been added back. A year and a half later...

It's odd, because Radeon used to be the king of HTPC GPUs, and these features were vitally important. I guess they just see that user segment as a dying breed, considering streaming and video-specific devices like Roku have taken the spotlight from HTPC and similar use-cases.

Oh, and that may very well be why my WMC still has great picture on all channels? It may not have anything to do with draw method, which was frankly me talking out of my ass! Whoops. I just still have that feature in my AMD drivers, and perhaps WMC would be equally impacted by the removal of the interlacing component of the drivers.

Soooo, looks like I'm not updating the GPU drivers on my HTPC - I still have CCC in all it's old-looking glory! lol
That was my point... Interlaced feeds is a dieing technology outside broadcast TV. How many devices are there on the market that really require a computer graphics card to process interlaced video feeds? Maybe a dozen or so when you look into with a very small market share. It just isn't a priority for computer GPU manufacturers to worry about interlaced content because such a small segment of the population will ever use interlaced feeds on their computer (I would venture to say somewhere in the 90-99% of consumers that use interlaced feeds just use cable company supplied hardware or TIVO style devices).

wsume99
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Re: Quick status update & AMD GPU dilemma - 20170127

Postby wsume99 » Tue Jan 31, 2017 11:30 am

Question - If having the ability to handle interlaced video is a dying capability as some are suggesting then what are the chances that other GPU OEMs could/would make a driver change in the future that would break the SD protected content solution? I am assuming/hoping this is something that has been discussed internally at SD to ensure they are not building their solution on top of a house of cards. I mean no disrespect with my question but the issue with AMD GPUs has for me highlighted the fact that SD is not in complete control of their protected content solution so I am just curious as to what the SD view on this is.

squirrellydw
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Re: Quick status update & AMD GPU dilemma - 20170127

Postby squirrellydw » Tue Jan 31, 2017 5:29 pm

Or maybe work with Plex to integrate DRM? I don't need it since I have FIOS but it would be nice just incase.

GetMatt
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Re: Quick status update & AMD GPU dilemma - 20170127

Postby GetMatt » Tue Jan 31, 2017 7:54 pm

Question - If having the ability to handle interlaced video is a dying capability as some are suggesting then what are the chances that other GPU OEMs could/would make a driver change in the future that would break the SD protected content solution? I am assuming/hoping this is something that has been discussed internally at SD to ensure they are not building their solution on top of a house of cards. I mean no disrespect with my question but the issue with AMD GPUs has for me highlighted the fact that SD is not in complete control of their protected content solution so I am just curious as to what the SD view on this is.
WMC never was either. My laptop running Win7 never worked with DRM content.

numus
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Re: Quick status update & AMD GPU dilemma - 20170127

Postby numus » Tue Jan 31, 2017 9:52 pm

Question - If having the ability to handle interlaced video is a dying capability as some are suggesting then what are the chances that other GPU OEMs could/would make a driver change in the future that would break the SD protected content solution? I am assuming/hoping this is something that has been discussed internally at SD to ensure they are not building their solution on top of a house of cards. I mean no disrespect with my question but the issue with AMD GPUs has for me highlighted the fact that SD is not in complete control of their protected content solution so I am just curious as to what the SD view on this is.
WMC never was either. My laptop running Win7 never worked with DRM content.
I believe the DRM pathway has to run via HDCP (why RaspberryPi and other devices like it won't ever get DRM support... because they don't have HDCP certification), so it is up to the GPU to make sure it is compatible. Your win7 laptop probably didn't have the proper HDCP support.

Edit: Nvidia and AMD are not going to mess up HDCP because a lot of software requires it.

signcarver
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Re: Quick status update & AMD GPU dilemma - 20170127

Postby signcarver » Tue Jan 31, 2017 10:53 pm

95% of the time the wmc issue with drm on laptops is either (embedded) displayport as WMC won't recognize displayport as hdcp capable or the frame rate is set too low (supposedly to save power... should be 60Hz) and occasionally an issue of having the intel/nvidia graphics combo. The solution for the first is an external display/tv connected by hdmi, for the second see if you can set framerate higher (or back to using external display). The third I don't believe there was ever a fix for. Other issues can involve cloning displays (which I believe is why that intel/nvidia combo doesn't work is it sets that detection off), vpn/remote desktop type software, if win 8 installing hyper-V as the host is then virtualized or if it was a recent issue on comcast many intel integrated graphics don't properly display protected h.264.

breezytm
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Re: Quick status update & AMD GPU dilemma - 20170127

Postby breezytm » Wed Feb 01, 2017 1:05 am

nickk...Will Live Channels works with DRM? Also can you give us a ball park in regards to time for Android. I do not care about certainty. An estimate would work for me. I am asking because in shield TV, the update keeps popping up and it is becoming very tiresome to have to dismiss it. I just need to know how much longer I have to do this for.
Let me get back to you after our next status meeting tomorrow.

Nick
Thank you sir. I appreciate it.

jjm1982
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Re: Quick status update & AMD GPU dilemma - 20170127

Postby jjm1982 » Wed Feb 01, 2017 2:12 am

nickk...Will Live Channels works with DRM? Also can you give us a ball park in regards to time for Android. I do not care about certainty. An estimate would work for me. I am asking because in shield TV, the update keeps popping up and it is becoming very tiresome to have to dismiss it. I just need to know how much longer I have to do this for.
Let me get back to you after our next status meeting tomorrow.

Nick
Thank you sir. I appreciate it.
A ball park would be great. The popups have become very irritating on the shield. I've gone through and attempted to turn off notifications on the Nvidia system apps but haven't found the right ones to prevent the popups, and the way they appear I just know my wife (who I've told and asked not update the shield) or my two year old may accidentally click on the download and update now button.

numus
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Re: Quick status update & AMD GPU dilemma - 20170127

Postby numus » Wed Feb 01, 2017 8:33 am

95% of the time the wmc issue with drm on laptops is either (embedded) displayport as WMC won't recognize displayport as hdcp capable or the frame rate is set too low (supposedly to save power... should be 60Hz) and occasionally an issue of having the intel/nvidia graphics combo. The solution for the first is an external display/tv connected by hdmi, for the second see if you can set framerate higher (or back to using external display). The third I don't believe there was ever a fix for. Other issues can involve cloning displays (which I believe is why that intel/nvidia combo doesn't work is it sets that detection off), vpn/remote desktop type software, if win 8 installing hyper-V as the host is then virtualized or if it was a recent issue on comcast many intel integrated graphics don't properly display protected h.264.
The hybrid card is why I no longer have my ASUS UL80VT... Loved that laptop (still got 9+ hours on the battery even after a few years of use) but the hybrid nvidia/intel (i believe it was the first generation) was EOL pretty much the day after I bought the laptop. Nvidia stopped supporting the cards and we had to resort to 3rd party firmware (which was never WHQL certified).

wsume99
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Re: Quick status update & AMD GPU dilemma - 20170127

Postby wsume99 » Wed Feb 01, 2017 10:12 am

Question - If having the ability to handle interlaced video is a dying capability as some are suggesting then what are the chances that other GPU OEMs could/would make a driver change in the future that would break the SD protected content solution? I am assuming/hoping this is something that has been discussed internally at SD to ensure they are not building their solution on top of a house of cards. I mean no disrespect with my question but the issue with AMD GPUs has for me highlighted the fact that SD is not in complete control of their protected content solution so I am just curious as to what the SD view on this is.
WMC never was either. My laptop running Win7 never worked with DRM content.
I believe the DRM pathway has to run via HDCP (why RaspberryPi and other devices like it won't ever get DRM support... because they don't have HDCP certification), so it is up to the GPU to make sure it is compatible. Your win7 laptop probably didn't have the proper HDCP support.

Edit: Nvidia and AMD are not going to mess up HDCP because a lot of software requires it.
I think you are missing my point which perhaps was not 100% clear. I understand your point about HDCP but what I am asking is does SD's solution rely on some relatively obscure GPU functionality that doesn't have a lot of usefulness other than for displaying broadcast TV which is perhaps viewed as a dying need by the GPU OEMs. So while HDCP remains functional the potential lack of support for that obscure functionality may effectively break the whole solution. Isn't this exactly what is happening now with AMD GPUs? I am only going off of what nickk described in the OP. Additionally, while I agree that WMC may not have had complete control of their destiny either I would like to think that MS had a better chance of keeping something alive vs SD. I am not complaining just trying to get an understanding of how robust HDHR DVR will be in terms of product longevity. I have been using HDHR Prime + WMC as my in home TV solution for maybe 5 years now and for the most part it has been completely stable regardless of what hardware I was using. I have run it on AMD, Intel and Nvidia GPUs without an issue. Now I read a post from SD saying they have the DRM solution approved but it only works on some hardware which concerns me a little. Maybe I am ignorant and these kinds of issues existed with WMC as well but I have not experienced them myself.


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