Quick status update & AMD GPU dilemma - 20170127

Help and support for HDHomeRun DVR and HDHomeRun software for Windows 10, Mac, Android, XBox, etc.
davewilk
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Re: Quick status update & AMD GPU dilemma - 20170127

Postby davewilk » Mon Jan 30, 2017 1:29 pm

The AMD issue doesn't affect me, but I can't help but wonder if there isn't a very easy work-around for most people...
// ...
Would it not be possible to simply send the image unadulterated, as recorded (or broadcast if watching live) to the user's display path? Most people using this system will not be watching on a "dumb" pc monitor (except occasionally like me when I use the app on a PC to schedule things, or do library maintenance, etc.)
// ...
I asked this question recently in a thread about the Fire TV (viewtopic.php?f=119&t=63753&start=15), but I was a bit confused by the answers. I think I was being told that the device will always send a progressive signal to the display; sending the original interlaced signal is not an option.

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nickk
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Re: Quick status update & AMD GPU dilemma - 20170127

Postby nickk » Mon Jan 30, 2017 2:31 pm

The AMD issue doesn't affect me, but I can't help but wonder if there isn't a very easy work-around for most people...
// ...
Would it not be possible to simply send the image unadulterated, as recorded (or broadcast if watching live) to the user's display path? Most people using this system will not be watching on a "dumb" pc monitor (except occasionally like me when I use the app on a PC to schedule things, or do library maintenance, etc.)
// ...
I asked this question recently in a thread about the Fire TV (viewtopic.php?f=119&t=63753&start=15), but I was a bit confused by the answers. I think I was being told that the device will always send a progressive signal to the display; sending the original interlaced signal is not an option.
The TV won't deinterlace the content because the graphics card is outputting the Windows UI in 1080p. It is the graphics card that does the deinterlacing of the video content (which may rescaled or may be in a window in a sub-part of the screen for example).

We had a meeting about this internally today. Rather than block the display of protected content on AMD the decision was made to enable support, with the understanding that it will look terrible on an AMD GPU for 480i or 1080i content. Copy-freely content is not affected. 720p content will look great. 480i/1080i content will at least display for customers wishing to test protected content support.

Nick

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nickk
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Re: Quick status update & AMD GPU dilemma - 20170127

Postby nickk » Mon Jan 30, 2017 2:57 pm

Is Windows 10 required? I have Windows 8.1 right now on my HTPC. I upgraded to 10 to lock in the license, but rolled back to 8.1 so that I can keep WMC going. I was hoping to concurrently test HDHR DVR alongside WMC on Windows 8.1.
Windows 10 is required for protected content. Also note this first release won't record protected content.

One approach to running both - if you have a XBox One you can use your Windows 8.1 system for recording and use the XBox One for watching TV/recordings. (We have full support for running the record engine on 8.1)

Nick

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Re: Quick status update & AMD GPU dilemma - 20170127

Postby nickk » Mon Jan 30, 2017 2:59 pm

nickk...Will Live Channels works with DRM? Also can you give us a ball park in regards to time for Android. I do not care about certainty. An estimate would work for me. I am asking because in shield TV, the update keeps popping up and it is becoming very tiresome to have to dismiss it. I just need to know how much longer I have to do this for.
Let me get back to you after our next status meeting tomorrow.

Nick

Aveamantium
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Re: Quick status update & AMD GPU dilemma - 20170127

Postby Aveamantium » Mon Jan 30, 2017 3:45 pm

The AMD issue doesn't affect me, but I can't help but wonder if there isn't a very easy work-around for most people...
// ...
Would it not be possible to simply send the image unadulterated, as recorded (or broadcast if watching live) to the user's display path? Most people using this system will not be watching on a "dumb" pc monitor (except occasionally like me when I use the app on a PC to schedule things, or do library maintenance, etc.)
// ...
I asked this question recently in a thread about the Fire TV (viewtopic.php?f=119&t=63753&start=15), but I was a bit confused by the answers. I think I was being told that the device will always send a progressive signal to the display; sending the original interlaced signal is not an option.
The TV won't deinterlace the content because the graphics card is outputting the Windows UI in 1080p. It is the graphics card that does the deinterlacing of the video content (which may rescaled or may be in a window in a sub-part of the screen for example).

We had a meeting about this internally today. Rather than block the display of protected content on AMD the decision was made to enable support, with the understanding that it will look terrible on an AMD GPU for 480i or 1080i content. Copy-freely content is not affected. 720p content will look great. 480i/1080i content will at least display for customers wishing to test protected content support.

Nick
I'm really feeling dense here (sorry)... So AMD is incapable of displaying 480i/1080i content entirely or just protected content...? 1080p is fine...? No input from AMD on this one?

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nickk
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Re: Quick status update & AMD GPU dilemma - 20170127

Postby nickk » Mon Jan 30, 2017 3:50 pm

I'm really feeling dense here (sorry)... So AMD is incapable of displaying 480i/1080i content entirely or just protected content...? 1080p is fine...? No input from AMD on this one?
AMD GPUs support GPU-decode of MPEG2 video required for protected content support, however they do not deinterlace the video which results in poor picture quality for 480i and 1080i content.

Nick

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Re: Quick status update & AMD GPU dilemma - 20170127

Postby Aveamantium » Mon Jan 30, 2017 4:09 pm

I'm really feeling dense here (sorry)... So AMD is incapable of displaying 480i/1080i content entirely or just protected content...? 1080p is fine...? No input from AMD on this one?
AMD GPUs support GPU-decode of MPEG2 video required for protected content support, however they do not deinterlace the video which results in poor picture quality for 480i and 1080i content.

Nick
Been a longtime supporter of AMD... Looks like the deinterlace option has been dead since the "advent" of crimson. I guess it gives me an "excuse" to upgrade hardware. ;) Thanks Nick!

mcewinter
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Re: Quick status update & AMD GPU dilemma - 20170127

Postby mcewinter » Mon Jan 30, 2017 4:49 pm

Android TV platforms won't be far behind.
Still no timeline? I signed up for a two year contract that included HBO (DRM) when the kickstarter started. I have lost 5.1 audio on my Shield as of late, so forgive me for fishing for some good news.

destrekor
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Re: Quick status update & AMD GPU dilemma - 20170127

Postby destrekor » Mon Jan 30, 2017 4:58 pm

Is Windows 10 required? I have Windows 8.1 right now on my HTPC. I upgraded to 10 to lock in the license, but rolled back to 8.1 so that I can keep WMC going. I was hoping to concurrently test HDHR DVR alongside WMC on Windows 8.1.
Windows 10 is required for protected content. Also note this first release won't record protected content.

One approach to running both - if you have a XBox One you can use your Windows 8.1 system for recording and use the XBox One for watching TV/recordings. (We have full support for running the record engine on 8.1)

Nick
So the record engine will eventually be able to record protected content when hosted on Windows 8.1? (or earlier releases, for that matter... maybe you can give an update for others who stuck to Windows 7?) I'd be fine with that approach for now, once a few pieces fall in line, and get an Android streaming device like the Shield. I love my Roku but I suspect it'll be awhile, if ever, that you develop for that?

gtb
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Re: Quick status update & AMD GPU dilemma - 20170127

Postby gtb » Mon Jan 30, 2017 6:33 pm

....
Been a longtime supporter of AMD... Looks like the deinterlace option has been dead since the "advent" of crimson.
[FD: I neither run Windows, nor have any AMD cards] If one believes the hardware references, the hardware may still be capable, but the entire crimson restructure reportedly removed the access to the required capability via the (previously available in CCC) advanced video controls and underlying APIs. While I can certainly understand a choice to not port all features from CCC for the first release (TTM), one would have expected AMD to restore the capability by now (should they ever intended to do so), but all good things take time (*cough* protected content path decoding/rendering *cough*).

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nickk
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Re: Quick status update & AMD GPU dilemma - 20170127

Postby nickk » Mon Jan 30, 2017 6:44 pm

Not having an option to disable deinterlacing is fine - it isn't something that should ever be turned off. The problem here is that deinterlacing isn't on/working for interlaced MPEG2 content.

squirrellydw
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Re: Quick status update & AMD GPU dilemma - 20170127

Postby squirrellydw » Mon Jan 30, 2017 7:43 pm

Nickk, any plans for a Apple TV app that supports DRM or teaming up with the great app "Channels"

GetMatt
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Re: Quick status update & AMD GPU dilemma - 20170127

Postby GetMatt » Mon Jan 30, 2017 9:27 pm

Nickk, any plans for a Apple TV app that supports DRM or teaming up with the great app "Channels"
They had teamed up with channels, but that fell through last spring and Channels made their own DVR. The Channels guys have addressed the tvOS DRM issue saying that there are no APIs that allow them to confirm HDCP status so they can't support DRM on AppleTV.

TeddyR
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Re: Quick status update & AMD GPU dilemma - 20170127

Postby TeddyR » Tue Jan 31, 2017 3:39 am

They had teamed up with channels, but that fell through last spring and Channels made their own DVR. The Channels guys have addressed the tvOS DRM issue saying that there are no APIs that allow them to confirm HDCP status so they can't support DRM on AppleTV.
They figured out a way around the HDCP issue... but the licensing and liability requirements (1M$-8M$) from DTLA in case of a key breach would make it too expensive to implement.

https://community.getchannels.com/t/an- ... upport/501

GetMatt
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Re: Quick status update & AMD GPU dilemma - 20170127

Postby GetMatt » Tue Jan 31, 2017 8:08 am

They had teamed up with channels, but that fell through last spring and Channels made their own DVR. The Channels guys have addressed the tvOS DRM issue saying that there are no APIs that allow them to confirm HDCP status so they can't support DRM on AppleTV.
They figured out a way around the HDCP issue... but the licensing and liability requirements (1M$-8M$) from DTLA in case of a key breach would make it too expensive to implement.

https://community.getchannels.com/t/an- ... upport/501
The post from Channels just makes you appreciate the hard work, effort and time that SD has put into DRM.


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