Grid Guide

Help and support for HDHomeRun DVR and HDHomeRun software for Windows 10, Mac, Android, XBox, etc.
wtg
Posts: 168
Joined: Thu Jan 18, 2007 5:21 am

Re: Grid Guide

Postby wtg » Wed Apr 18, 2018 5:05 am

The unofficial Kodi PVR Client already has a grid guide. I use it every day. It has an option to show DRM channels in the channel lineups. I don't see why you couldn't use it to schedule DRM recordings once we have that capability, even if you can't play them in Kodi.

Thread here: viewtopic.php?f=88&t=65776
Like many, I'm looking for an integrated solution that can be simply controlled via a remote sitting on my couch: a true DVR solution that replaces a cable box. If you don't need DRM support, Kodi is a decent solution. If you do need DRM support WMC is the only option today. Thankfully it still is an option, if only just barely.

ldoodle
Posts: 5
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2018 1:36 pm

Re: Grid Guide

Postby ldoodle » Fri Apr 27, 2018 5:20 am

A grid guide is a way to solve a number of problems, but when you look at the usage it really doesn't solve any of them all that well.

We have split things into a live TV slice view and Discover Now Showing to provide a better solution. We have major update to Now Showing as part of the UI upgrade that is in the works.

Nick
I think that's all down to preference at the end of the day. As I said, literally everywhere in the UK is grid style - subscription STBs, FTA STBs, FTA-based TVs.

Don't get me wrong, I like some of the slice/discover now stuff. But that should be just a part of it. For a more detailed overview, grid is by far the easiest. This just cannot be beaten (this is from Sky's Q-generation STBs):

https://imgur.com/a/Zbhgqna
https://imgur.com/a/MpfXkKa

rykr
Posts: 301
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2015 5:09 am

Re: Grid Guide

Postby rykr » Fri Apr 27, 2018 9:54 am

There are many ways Discover can and should be improved.

1. Clearly show what is on *now*. Sort in chrono order
2. Allow me to define groups of channels and see what is on just in a group
3. What if I want to hide some shows that my wife doesn't want to hide. Profile specific hide lists

Home view should show a red dot on any shows that are currently recording. I record movies that I pull off and store in plex. I'm constantly having to check my.hdhomerun.com to see if that movie is done recording or not. A simple red dot like what appears in discover tab would do it.

The slice view should be improved in the following ways:
1. Show the current show for all the channels on the screen. Right now only a single channel slides out. I'm suggesting instead of a popout have a channel list on the right hand side that shows what is currently playing. Hitting left and right and slide that channel list back and forth in time for example.
2. Make the popout a bit transluscent do it doesn't seem to block entirely the show playing behind it
3. Enable me to use page up and page down to scroll through the channels a page at a time. Incredibly on my Win10 pc, page down goes to one channel lower and page up goes to *one* channel higher.
4. Improve font size. Hard to read from 10-15 feet away

ldoodle
Posts: 5
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2018 1:36 pm

Re: Grid Guide

Postby ldoodle » Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:17 pm


ldoodle
Posts: 5
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2018 1:36 pm

Re: Grid Guide

Postby ldoodle » Sat May 12, 2018 10:15 am

After having also tried Plex (which is even worse!) I've just tried the built-in (to Shield TV anyway) Live Channels app.

This is the best one so far, by far. That is how a guide should look... that is how I want a guide to look. You can just scroll through channels and see everything.

Only negative is that is doesn't integrate into HDHR DVR service.

rykr
Posts: 301
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2015 5:09 am

Re: Grid Guide

Postby rykr » Sat May 12, 2018 10:28 am

Only negative is that is doesn't integrate into HDHR DVR service.
This is where they've missed the boat. I know it's Android specific but provide a great integration with Android live channels and it's a win

tsimitpo
Posts: 17
Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2012 3:19 pm

Re: Grid Guide

Postby tsimitpo » Mon May 21, 2018 1:38 am

I love the HDHR tuners being on my home network, but I really wish I had seen this thread and had a chance to test drive the HDHR DVR software before paying for it, because it is extremely disappointing as a PC-based WMC replacement - for me at least.

Without a grid guide, it just takes too dang long to try to find everything that's on that I might be interested in on any given day or evening with over 600 channels to choose from. With WMC and the My Channel Logos add-on, I currently have it set to show me a grid 3 hours wide and 10 channels deep and get a full description of a show by simply pointing it at it with a cursor or scrolling to it with arrow keys, so I can browse the whole guide for a full evening in just a few minutes.

I appreciate that many and perhaps even most people may not wish to find things to watch by browsing a "TV Guide", but I'm an engineer by profession and that's why I find spreadsheets so much more useful for displaying a lot of information at a glance compared to typical (dumbed-down for security and for the masses) one-record-at-a-time database "display forms".

The lack of a grid guide is probably the deal-breaker for me, but in less that an hour of use I've already come across several other very concerning issues.

1) When watching a currently recording show, how do I know when I've caught up to live? With sporting events that have an indeterminate ending this is critical, and sporting events represent most of what I watch.

2) In the same vein, how do I stop a recording early (some program slots are literally 8-12 hours long). Even if I just recorded the whole thing, can you imagine how long it would take to play that back to try to just see the most interesting parts? These super long recording slots are also why I don't know how I could deal with not having a manual record option.

3) How do I add 10, 15, 30 minutes or an hour to a scheduled recording to accommodate a game that could go multiple overtimes? Most college football games on ESPN are in 3-hour time slots while games ALWAYS go considerably over and sometimes go over 4 hours.

4) How can I speed up or slow down playback like virtually every other DVR I've ever used? Is it expected that a 3rd party viewer like VLC be used for such needs?

Admittedly, I've played with this software for less than a day, so please forgive me if some of the apparent shortcomings I've mentioned are addressed in other ways. I am very impressed with what SD has done for networking and device support - it's the best I've seen - but a fully functional DVR is just not there yet. Having 3 Lifetime TiVo Bolts connected to our TVs, the bar is pretty high for me, but for the PC, WMC was almost there in many ways other than MS pulling the plug on its future.

rykr
Posts: 301
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2015 5:09 am

Re: Grid Guide

Postby rykr » Mon May 21, 2018 6:01 am

I love the HDHR tuners being on my home network, but I really wish I had seen this thread and had a chance to test drive the HDHR DVR software before paying for it, because it is extremely disappointing as a PC-based WMC replacement - for me at least.

Without a grid guide, it just takes too dang long to try to find everything that's on that I might be interested in on any given day or evening with over 600 channels to choose from. With WMC and the My Channel Logos add-on, I currently have it set to show me a grid 3 hours wide and 10 channels deep and get a full description of a show by simply pointing it at it with a cursor or scrolling to it with arrow keys, so I can browse the whole guide for a full evening in just a few minutes.

I appreciate that many and perhaps even most people may not wish to find things to watch by browsing a "TV Guide", but I'm an engineer by profession and that's why I find spreadsheets so much more useful for displaying a lot of information at a glance compared to typical (dumbed-down for security and for the masses) one-record-at-a-time database "display forms".
Agree on all fronts
1) When watching a currently recording show, how do I know when I've caught up to live? With sporting events that have an indeterminate ending this is critical, and sporting events represent most of what I watch.
You really don't. For me there is a delay or lag when it is caught up with tv but there is no visual cue or indicator.
2) In the same vein, how do I stop a recording early (some program slots are literally 8-12 hours long). Even if I just recorded the whole thing, can you imagine how long it would take to play that back to try to just see the most interesting parts? These super long recording slots are also why I don't know how I could deal with not having a manual record option.
You can't. And even if you delete the recording it will not release the tuner until the recording is actually done. I've been in a situation where I couldn't watch another show because all tuners were in use recording shows that I had deleted and didn't want to see. Nice huh?
3) How do I add 10, 15, 30 minutes or an hour to a scheduled recording to accommodate a game that could go multiple overtimes? Most college football games on ESPN are in 3-hour time slots while games ALWAYS go considerably over and sometimes go over 4 hours.
There is some controls on the schedule recording page to set this. It's not very easy to use and you can't set custom padding on parts of a series recording.
4) How can I speed up or slow down playback like virtually every other DVR I've ever used? Is it expected that a 3rd party viewer like VLC be used for such needs?
You can't.
Admittedly, I've played with this software for less than a day, so please forgive me if some of the apparent shortcomings I've mentioned are addressed in other ways. I am very impressed with what SD has done for networking and device support - it's the best I've seen - but a fully functional DVR is just not there yet. Having 3 Lifetime TiVo Bolts connected to our TVs, the bar is pretty high for me, but for the PC, WMC was almost there in many ways other than MS pulling the plug on its future.
Those people who are using it are primarily doing so because they are hoping for that mythical DRM recording capability. Take DRM away and there are several other much better options out there. I'm currently using TVHeadend + Kodi and it's a much better experience.

tsimitpo
Posts: 17
Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2012 3:19 pm

Re: Grid Guide

Postby tsimitpo » Mon May 21, 2018 10:49 am

Thanks for the candid reply, rykr. If the DVR software seemed to be gradually adding on features to get to a well-rounded DVR solution, I would probably hang with it. However, there seems to be a bit of denial by the decision-makers about its deficiencies rather than an attitude of working on removing objections. I would gladly pay $10 a month for the product if I saw progress being made toward making it more like WMC - and even more to be more like a TiVo. Apparently, I am not the kind of customer they are trying to attract.

I suppose my next step will have to be to create another partition on thiis new SSD and put Windows 7 and WMC on it and use it until MS wrestles it out of my "cold, dead fingers".

GetMatt
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Re: Grid Guide

Postby GetMatt » Mon May 21, 2018 11:35 am

Thanks for the candid reply, rykr. If the DVR software seemed to be gradually adding on features to get to a well-rounded DVR solution, I would probably hang with it. However, there seems to be a bit of denial by the decision-makers about its deficiencies rather than an attitude of working on removing objections. I would gladly pay $10 a month for the product if I saw progress being made toward making it more like WMC - and even more to be more like a TiVo. Apparently, I am not the kind of customer they are trying to attract.

I suppose my next step will have to be to create another partition on thiis new SSD and put Windows 7 and WMC on it and use it until MS wrestles it out of my "cold, dead fingers".
I will disagree with Rykr on a few points.

We were originally put off by not having the grid guide until we realized how much we really don't need it. The discover section works pretty well as is and is in the process of being completely revamp along with the rest of the UI.

Padding is actually pretty easy to change and is completely variable. I have all NFL recordings setup to add 30min to the beginning and 1hr afterwards. When you are in recording setup select the padding and changed it to whatever you want.

There is not a way to change the speed of playback, but I am curious as to the reason why you are looking for that. Most video services don't really have a true fast forward anymore. HDHR offers a 10s back, 30s forward, 10min back and 10min forward.

The biggest issue we have with WMC is that it's clunky and slow and in our case it's failing to properly record some shows. We switched to HDHR originally not because of DRM, but because WMC is a clunky ancient piece of softeware and HDHR is so much snappier. We have never missed a recording with HDHR and it just works. WMC has bugs and crashes and is slow along with most of the other options on the market. HDHR also can be run on inexpensive devices with AndroidTV and FireTV and is presented as an app which fits much better with the current scheme of TV along with Netflix, Vudu, Hulu...etc.

mcewinter
Posts: 439
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 4:36 pm

Re: Grid Guide

Postby mcewinter » Mon May 21, 2018 12:17 pm

Thanks for the candid reply, rykr. If the DVR software seemed to be gradually adding on features to get to a well-rounded DVR solution, I would probably hang with it. However, there seems to be a bit of denial by the decision-makers about its deficiencies rather than an attitude of working on removing objections. I would gladly pay $10 a month for the product if I saw progress being made toward making it more like WMC - and even more to be more like a TiVo. Apparently, I am not the kind of customer they are trying to attract.

I suppose my next step will have to be to create another partition on thiis new SSD and put Windows 7 and WMC on it and use it until MS wrestles it out of my "cold, dead fingers".
SD has a mindset of saving the end-user some money; a mindset that many appreciate. There are other products that offer a grid guide since you are content on paying a monthly fee. See Tivo and your TV service provider. They'll gladly take your money.

gtb
Expert
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Re: Grid Guide

Postby gtb » Mon May 21, 2018 12:43 pm

SD has a mindset of saving the end-user some money; a mindset that many appreciate.
"Re-imagining" a DVR solution comes with changes. Some of those may save money, some may not, but if you do not like the re-imagining itself, you are not required to choose that solution (and you likely should not).

Arguably, if you look at a number of the other (newer and planned) solutions from the leading companies, they are moving more towards a discovery like interface (and/or using voice to find content), than the old ways of linear programming and VCRs that you set manually (event programming is the only things some may continue to watch live). Discovery, along with recommendation engines to help you find things you might like to consume, are the new normal (while some will only give up their SARA interface when it is pried from their cold, dead, hands). To each their own.

tsimitpo
Posts: 17
Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2012 3:19 pm

Re: Grid Guide

Postby tsimitpo » Mon May 21, 2018 1:22 pm

...
Padding is actually pretty easy to change and is completely variable. I have all NFL recordings setup to add 30min to the beginning and 1hr afterwards. When you are in recording setup select the padding and changed it to whatever you want.
I could work with that - I guess I just didn't see it when setting a recording. Is there a keyboard shortcut or pop-up for addressing it? What should I be looking for?
There is not a way to change the speed of playback, but I am curious as to the reason why you are looking for that. Most video services don't really have a true fast forward anymore. HDHR offers a 10s back, 30s forward, 10min back and 10min forward.
I watch a lot of sports and most of them are much longer than I have time to commit to them. For example, when watching something like a NASCAR race, I'm used to FF-ing through the more moudane left turn after left turn until there are pit stops, accidents or significant passes that I like to see in more detail. Because I don't want to use up recording space unnecessarily, when I'm viewing a game that is still in progress, I'll usually risk seeing a spoiler in order to jump to live near the end of the game to make sure the recording ends at an appropriate time and then jump back to where I left off to continue watching With HDHR DVR I'm not sure how to get back to where I left off. I realize this type of use is probably not typical of the average user.
The biggest issue we have with WMC is that it's clunky and slow and in our case it's failing to properly record some shows. We switched to HDHR originally not because of DRM, but because WMC is a clunky ancient piece of softeware and HDHR is so much snappier. We have never missed a recording with HDHR and it just works. WMC has bugs and crashes and is slow along with most of the other options on the market. HDHR also can be run on inexpensive devices with AndroidTV and FireTV and is presented as an app which fits much better with the current scheme of TV along with Netflix, Vudu, Hulu...etc.
Yes, WMC can be slow at times, but as long as I keep the guide up to date, I've never had it miss a recording without a good reason (typically a tuner decommissioned until the tuner is power cycled). In extremely heavy use like during March Madness where I record all 68 games and many NIT and Women's tournament games, I've not seen it miss a single recording, which is extremely impressive to me. The biggest problem I've had was when the guide wasn't up to date it might need a manual recording to be set to keep the algorithm from thinking the game (identical metadata) had already been recorded. Speaking of metadata, WMC embeds all the show details in the .wtv file it generates and those fields can be displayed and sorted in most file browsers like Windows Explorer. I couldn't find the metadata for HDHR DVR recorded shows. Do you know where it is kept?

Thanks!

tsimitpo
Posts: 17
Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2012 3:19 pm

Re: Grid Guide

Postby tsimitpo » Mon May 21, 2018 1:44 pm

SD has a mindset of saving the end-user some money; a mindset that many appreciate. There are other products that offer a grid guide since you are content on paying a monthly fee. See Tivo and your TV service provider. They'll gladly take your money.
I already have 3 TiVos on lifetime that we're quite happy with (high WAF), but they rely on turning on a TV screen. I started watching ballgames in a small window on my PC screen back in the 90's with the ATi Radeon All-in-Wonder video cards with tuners and it's the way I've come to prefer watching sports while working on other things with the computer. I also like to be able to save many things I've recorded for archival purposes, but since the cableco's switch to h.264 video, file transfers from TiVo have gotten a little bit glitchy due to time-code issues. Shows that play back fine on the TiVo occasionally have a minute or more missing (typically on the tail end of a commercial break) after transferring to the PC. Shows recorded directly to the PC do not exhibit these glitches.

With no real alternatives to WMC for a fairly complete DVR solution, I think it would be reasonable for a product like HDHR DVR to have an economy model for those who wish for minimal outlay (like the current offering) and a pricier option for those seeking a more robust solution. This could provide slightly more challenge for those writing the code while funding the SD family with a little more cash.

rykr
Posts: 301
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2015 5:09 am

Re: Grid Guide

Postby rykr » Mon May 21, 2018 4:29 pm

We were originally put off by not having the grid guide until we realized how much we really don't need it. The discover section works pretty well as is and is in the process of being completely revamp along with the rest of the UI.
Discovery would be a useful alternative to the grid guide if it was truly useful. Can't see what is truly on right now. Can't tell how it is sorted. Can't have show lists that are specific to different viewers. Can't view shows grouped by channel. Etc, etc.
Padding is actually pretty easy to change and is completely variable. I have all NFL recordings setup to add 30min to the beginning and 1hr afterwards. When you are in recording setup select the padding and changed it to whatever you want.
Except when you want to change the padding of an item inside a series. Very often I have a series set to the default but then a particular instance of a show I want to add some extra padding. It's an all of nothing kind of thing.
The biggest issue we have with WMC is that it's clunky and slow and in our case it's failing to properly record some shows. We switched to HDHR originally not because of DRM, but because WMC is a clunky ancient piece of softeware and HDHR is so much snappier. We have never missed a recording with HDHR and it just works. WMC has bugs and crashes and is slow along with most of the other options on the market. HDHR also can be run on inexpensive devices with AndroidTV and FireTV and is presented as an app which fits much better with the current scheme of TV along with Netflix, Vudu, Hulu...etc.
I'll agree with you here. WMC was slow and laggy. Tossed it along time ago.


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