Win 10, HDHR app, choppy on some channels (edit: presumably due to 1080i MPEG2 on 768p panel)

Help and support for HDHomeRun DVR and HDHomeRun software for Windows 10, Mac, Android, XBox, etc.
Keenan
Posts: 190
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2006 6:55 pm

Re: Win 10, HDHR app, choppy on some channels (presumably MPEG2... how to check?)

Postby Keenan » Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:16 am

Thanks, guys. I was asking because for the price of the device I was hoping to use it for a bit more than just the SD app, maybe some web browsing and video file playback.
That's my plan as well, basically video of any type. Haven't tested high bitrate video performance yet... I'll give it a go tomorrow and report back. But even if it can't do the most demanding files, in my particular case that won't likely be an issue but for you it might.
For me, anything short of Blu-ray bitrates would be fine and if it can handle that, even better.

destrekor
Posts: 73
Joined: Mon May 04, 2015 8:20 am

Re: Win 10, HDHR app, choppy on some channels (presumably MPEG2... how to check?)

Postby destrekor » Tue Nov 14, 2017 12:30 pm

Keenan, I have yet to test but I will do so shortly. But...
I want to give nickk and jasonl an update in the meantime:

Latest HDHR app, Win10 fully updated, all latest drivers so far as I can tell: still has video freeze while playing DRM content (haven't witnessed it occurring while watching non-DRM channels, can't rule out it won't happen though).
Worse, once that happens, I can no longer tune any DRM channel. Even if I Alt-F4 the app (handily mapped that to my Harmony remote! lol) and relaunch, I have had DRM fail to tune. On occasion even a full reboot doesn't restore play. I haven't figured out why it sometimes works once I relaunch and sometimes, even after two reboots and relaunching HDHR still can't tune into DRM.

I'll enable the diagnostics. Let me know what you need for that.

Note: I do not have the Record Engine running anywhere yet. I've been meaning too. I still rely on WMC on my main theater HTPC which is where it all counts most for me. For now I'm testing HDHR on my secondary TV. Does the DVR backend do any transcoding? Even if it does, I'd imagine it couldn't touch copy-once content right now, right?

One last question:

I think this has been answered before, but when DRM recording and caching is a go, will the backend support that regardless of record engine platform? Or will a Windows machine running the Record engine be the first to support end-to-end DRM?

GGRussell
Posts: 928
Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2012 3:08 pm

Re: Win 10, HDHR app, choppy on some channels (presumably MPEG2... how to check?)

Postby GGRussell » Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:44 pm

Does the DVR backend do any transcoding?
The record engine does no transcoding. It just records the data stream from tuner as is. When you play that file, it just streams the same data.

jasonl
Silicondust
Posts: 10530
Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2007 9:23 pm

Re: Win 10, HDHR app, choppy on some channels (presumably MPEG2... how to check?)

Postby jasonl » Tue Nov 14, 2017 5:46 pm

Need the device ID for your HDHomeRun to check the logs.

destrekor
Posts: 73
Joined: Mon May 04, 2015 8:20 am

Re: Win 10, HDHR app, choppy on some channels (presumably MPEG2... how to check?)

Postby destrekor » Tue Nov 14, 2017 7:14 pm

Need the device ID for your HDHomeRun to check the logs.
1318698A

Do I need to worry about the ID being out there in the public? Let me know ASAP and I'll edit the post and use PMs for future discussion. My experience still suggests I shouldn't worry though, else I would have PM'd y'all regardless lol.

destrekor
Posts: 73
Joined: Mon May 04, 2015 8:20 am

Re: Win 10, HDHR app, choppy on some channels (presumably MPEG2... how to check?)

Postby destrekor » Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:06 pm

Thanks, guys. I was asking because for the price of the device I was hoping to use it for a bit more than just the SD app, maybe some web browsing and video file playback.
That's my plan as well, basically video of any type. Haven't tested high bitrate video performance yet... I'll give it a go tomorrow and report back. But even if it can't do the most demanding files, in my particular case that won't likely be an issue but for you it might.
For me, anything short of Blu-ray bitrates would be fine and if it can handle that, even better.
So I did a couple tests. Super-high bitrate over wifi is unlikely, but that will depend upon the strength of your network at the location you choose. Wired should be fine, haven't tested that. I transferred a video file, about 28GB of high bitrate video and lossless audio (Blu-ray rip) to the local disk, and played it in Kodi. All I have installed that isn't stock or part of the system driver set, would be the HDHR app and the Kodi app. So no special codecs or anything, just what's included in the above.

In short the wifi just couldn't keep up based on the local connection strength - this may be a combo of weak-ish reception from the client and a weak spot in my wireless network. It just wasn't an experience you'd want. Now, the local file, it played perfectly fine. Video and audio was in sync, but mind the fact that I was running stereo audio decode on-system, as opposed to AC3 passthrough. That's largely a function of the software, and most separate video software will support passthrough of any audio codec, but HDHR doesn't need to worry about anything other than AC3 for audio in television. It shouldn't be much to decode from the lossless audio to stereo, but that would be more processing than outright passthrough to a receiver. If going straight to the TV, you'd be in the same situation as I am for this setup of mine.

Keenan
Posts: 190
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2006 6:55 pm

Re: Win 10, HDHR app, choppy on some channels (presumably MPEG2... how to check?)

Postby Keenan » Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:18 am

Thanks!

I'd be feeding the output through an AVR first and then onto the display so it would be great if sent hi-rez audio bitstream on the HDMI output. If this box can handle that as well as the HDHR app I'm good to go.

I'm tired of playing around with inexpensive Android TV boxes and the Fire TV as well, an actual PC seems a much better way to go.

This is somewhat off topic so maybe we should take to PM instead. Although, it might be useful information for others as well.

destrekor
Posts: 73
Joined: Mon May 04, 2015 8:20 am

Re: Win 10, HDHR app, choppy on some channels (presumably MPEG2... how to check?)

Postby destrekor » Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:36 am

Thanks!

I'd be feeding the output through an AVR first and then onto the display so it would be great if sent hi-rez audio bitstream on the HDMI output. If this box can handle that as well as the HDHR app I'm good to go.

I'm tired of playing around with inexpensive Android TV boxes and the Fire TV as well, an actual PC seems a much better way to go.

This is somewhat off topic so maybe we should take to PM instead. Although, it might be useful information for others as well.
To be honest I can't vouch for whether it will will work all codecs output through HDMI; that's going to be up to the system+receiver combo. I can't imagine it wouldn't work, as the foundation is there and should be easy to do with modern Intel chipsets. I never tested that kind of setup because my equivalent setup in my home theater is already functioning smoothly and I need it to stay that way. lol And I've since mounted the unit and tidied up all the cabling on the back of the TV. It turned out great for what I was working with! So I hope you'll forgive me if I don't tear it down to personally test. ;)

Honestly if it was loose I'd probably test just that setup, easy enough to swap in downstairs. I wish I had thought of it, then I'd get to properly test true 1080p performance as well.

Nick's got one, so hopefully he can lend some feedback!

destrekor
Posts: 73
Joined: Mon May 04, 2015 8:20 am

Re: Win 10, HDHR app, choppy on some channels (presumably MPEG2... how to check?)

Postby destrekor » Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:23 pm

Jason, Nick, either of you need my diagnostic data?

FYI, I think the latest update, 20171115, fixed the freezing video issue! It appears I can keep browsing all the DRM channels and staying on one to watch for an hour produced no freeze. Sweet.

There is still choppy video on some channels. I'm going to check something with the resolution and get back to you whether or not I find some combo that keeps a few specific channels smooth. But unless some panel timing choice works out, I'm limited between the specific TV and what the Intel iGPU drivers can achieve.
(TV's native res 1366x768, supports 1080i and 720p signals. TV appears to require 1366 or 1368x768 from the PC in order for proper scaling and fitting everything on the TV, else the overscan is horrendous and can't be fixed or is otherwise super blurry compared to native)

destrekor
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Joined: Mon May 04, 2015 8:20 am

Re: Win 10, HDHR app, choppy on some channels (presumably MPEG2... how to check?)

Postby destrekor » Thu Nov 16, 2017 11:01 pm

Well, no amount of tinkering appears to resolved it, regardless of overscan or blurriness.


edit:
edited title to reflect the 1080i aspect. This seems to be the current culprit (as discovered later in the thread, all my cable content is MPEG2 so that wouldn't alone explain performance differences only on specific channels). On some channels, the jerkiness/choppiness can present itself to varying degrees but only ever noticeable on those specific channels (I checked, those are 1080i).

I had thought the 20171115 update had cleared up freezing video issues, but I noticed on TNT (1080i, copy-once flagged), it froze again. And I needed to reboot to bring back access to copy-once flagged content (basically, everything).

nickk
Silicondust
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Re: Win 10, HDHR app, choppy on some channels (presumably MPEG2... how to check?)

Postby nickk » Fri Nov 17, 2017 12:27 am

Well, no amount of tinkering appears to resolved it, regardless of overscan or blurriness.


edit:
edited title to reflect the 1080i aspect. This seems to be the current culprit (as discovered later in the thread, all my cable content is MPEG2 so that wouldn't alone explain performance differences only on specific channels). On some channels, the jerkiness/choppiness can present itself to varying degrees but only ever noticeable on those specific channels (I checked, those are 1080i).

I had thought the 20171115 update had cleared up freezing video issues, but I noticed on TNT (1080i, copy-once flagged), it froze again. And I needed to reboot to bring back access to copy-once flagged content (basically, everything).
The log shows a number of odd things that might point to the system not keeping up.

What is the CPU in this system?

destrekor
Posts: 73
Joined: Mon May 04, 2015 8:20 am

Re: Win 10, HDHR app, choppy on some channels (presumably MPEG2... how to check?)

Postby destrekor » Fri Nov 17, 2017 9:29 am

Well, no amount of tinkering appears to resolved it, regardless of overscan or blurriness.


edit:
edited title to reflect the 1080i aspect. This seems to be the current culprit (as discovered later in the thread, all my cable content is MPEG2 so that wouldn't alone explain performance differences only on specific channels). On some channels, the jerkiness/choppiness can present itself to varying degrees but only ever noticeable on those specific channels (I checked, those are 1080i).

I had thought the 20171115 update had cleared up freezing video issues, but I noticed on TNT (1080i, copy-once flagged), it froze again. And I needed to reboot to bring back access to copy-once flagged content (basically, everything).
The log shows a number of odd things that might point to the system not keeping up.

What is the CPU in this system?
It's a Celeron N3450 (https://ark.intel.com/products/95596/In ... to-2_2-GHz)

I'm going to break it free of its mounted confines and test it on a 1080p native panel. And I also have easy access to an ethernet connection in the home theater to at least test that out too. This system played back a local Blu-ray rip flawlessly. I did see one user mention, if not for this system than a similar one, that wifi streaming draws a fair amount of CPU, so perhaps performance is an issue.

I did notice the system struggling to play that same BD rip over wifi but I didn't correlate that to actual performance issues at the time but wifi reception. But now that I'm thinking of it, the bitrate of the video shouldn't have even maxed out the network link.

destrekor
Posts: 73
Joined: Mon May 04, 2015 8:20 am

Re: Win 10, HDHR app, choppy on some channels (edit: presumably due to 1080i MPEG2 on 768p panel)

Postby destrekor » Sat Nov 18, 2017 7:18 am

Honestly, I didn't notice much of a difference.

I had it hooked up to my 1080p TV (the Byte3 didn't like being connected to the AVR, but direct to the TV it gave me video output).

First I tried it via wifi and everything seemed basically the same. Not much difference with the 1080p TV on 1080i channels versus the 768p TV upstairs. Still something like micro-stutters on CBS and TNT, but not always noticeable (depends on content? especially noticeable during commercials or anything with a lot of action on screen - people just talking and moving slowly, not much to notice).

If there was any difference using the wired network, it was imperceptible. Maybe a touch better, but I think it was placebo. Other channels were still smoother. Now, I forgot to test streaming a BD-rip over the wired network but I did test transfer speed over wired and wireless.

It's hard to tell - I'm still suspecting something weird with decoding on this system.


What's the MPEG2 situation again? I know we had to download a Microsoft MPEG2 app on the windows store. Does anyone know how this ties into hardware decoding, especially Intel Quick Sync? I'm curious if it's not properly offloading to that part of the chip (GPU) and is instead utilizing standard software decode which could be too heavy for this little chip using regular x86 processing.

I'm away from home this weekend so I can't test any further, but I know I haven't noticed any issues like this on my gaming desktop, but that's got dedicated GPUs and a heavy-lifting CPU. I have a MacBook Pro with a discrete GPU, so testing may be limited with it but when I get back home I can try out HDHR on both Mac and Windows 10 on the laptop. I think in Windows 10 it's always on the Nvidia GPU and can't utilize the Intel iGPU, which unfortunately means I cannot test just the Intel GPU's performance in Windows 10 with HDHR.

GGRussell
Posts: 928
Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2012 3:08 pm

Re: Win 10, HDHR app, choppy on some channels (edit: presumably due to 1080i MPEG2 on 768p panel)

Postby GGRussell » Sat Nov 18, 2017 9:24 am

Windows 10 on the laptop. I think in Windows 10 it's always on the Nvidia GPU and can't utilize the Intel iGPU
Depends on your laptop BIOS. Most laptops with discrete GPU have MSHybrid mode or nVidia Optimus. Meaning the laptop always boots with the iGPU until you run software that needs the dGPU. The idea is to save battery power. My personal experience shows that very few consumer apps (except games) even take advantage of the dGPU. I went through 2 high end laptops until I could find one that allowed me to disable MSHybrid / Optimus mode in the BIOS (for my video editor).

So unless you have changed the settings in your BIOS, most likely your laptop boots with the Intel GPU active. To know for sure, just run GPUZ. it's free.

destrekor
Posts: 73
Joined: Mon May 04, 2015 8:20 am

Re: Win 10, HDHR app, choppy on some channels (edit: presumably due to 1080i MPEG2 on 768p panel)

Postby destrekor » Sat Nov 18, 2017 9:43 am

Windows 10 on the laptop. I think in Windows 10 it's always on the Nvidia GPU and can't utilize the Intel iGPU
Depends on your laptop BIOS. Most laptops with discrete GPU have MSHybrid mode or nVidia Optimus. Meaning the laptop always boots with the iGPU until you run software that needs the dGPU. The idea is to save battery power. My personal experience shows that very few consumer apps (except games) even take advantage of the dGPU. I went through 2 high end laptops until I could find one that allowed me to disable MSHybrid / Optimus mode in the BIOS (for my video editor).

So unless you have changed the settings in your BIOS, most likely your laptop boots with the Intel GPU active. To know for sure, just run GPUZ. it's free.
This is a MacBook Pro, and is a result of Apple's doing. Windows (any version) can't switch between the two, so it gets worse battery life as, while it can downclock the dGPU, it can't turn it off and stick to the iGPU like normal. That should be normally available for every laptop, save for Apple, who gets to decide what gets presented to Windows on its hardware thanks to the bootcamp drivers and software.

I didn't buy the laptop for Windows (though I use it occasionally), so it's not a huge concern. Just a bummer that I cannot do the type of testing I'd like to do.


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