OTA Signal Measurements

Reception, channel detection, network issues, CableCARD setup, etc.
wellthatsnotgood
Posts: 510
Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2011 6:55 pm

Re: OTA Signal Measurements

Postby wellthatsnotgood » Sat Sep 22, 2018 5:38 pm

So experts..what is the FCC repack all about? Is it to refurb some
towers to move channels into the UHF band with less power output?
Quite the opposite. They are taking away UHF space, so a lot of channels are moving back to VHF (some even into VHF-Lo, in Los Angeles actually every VHF-Lo channel is now assigned). And to top it off, some channels don't even have an available channel to move to so they will now be "guest" channels on another channel (yet they will still be paying their full license fee because... um... I dunno). So those channels hosting a guest channel will now be sharing their available bandwidth which means their HD feeds will have lower bitrates and thus worse picture quality.

But at least some people in some random place who knows were will now get much better coverage on T-Mobile... well when they buy a new phone that supports the proper band (and I say this as someone who uses T-Mobile).

jseymour
Posts: 367
Joined: Sat May 12, 2018 8:46 am

Re: OTA Signal Measurements

Postby jseymour » Sat Sep 22, 2018 10:32 pm

But at least some people in some random place who knows were will now get much better coverage on T-Mobile... well when they buy a new phone that supports the proper band (and I say this as someone who uses T-Mobile).
And a bunch of other people get to find out they need new antennas and/or (new) LTE filters.

Yeah, it's gonna be great.

ebo
Posts: 510
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:58 pm
Device ID: 1016F746, 101C8CF9, 1041F134, 10532394

Re: OTA Signal Measurements

Postby ebo » Sat Sep 22, 2018 11:34 pm

Heavy 10 Lb Tiled roof here so not sure attic will cut it altho someone said I'm not pointing at
a satellite just thru a flimsy stucco wall here in freezing Henderson NV.
You said the magic word:stucco. In other words, you're living in a Faraday cage. Stucco is usually applied on a chickenwire frame that is very effective at blocking TV signals (among others). So whatever antenna you use shouldn't be looking through stucco.

You've had good suggestions on what antennas to buy or build. Here are a couple more.

Try rabbit ears with a loop. Typically $10-$15 so if it doesn't work you're not out much money. Although the elements generally don't extend enough to be ideal for low VHF, they're still better than small panel antennas. How to use Rabbit Ears will give you tips on adjusting them.

Another site with plans to build your own antenna is A simple, efficient TV antenna. It uses twin lead but you could just use wire on a frame as in one of the other links you were given.

jasonl
Silicondust
Posts: 13053
Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2007 9:23 pm

Re: OTA Signal Measurements

Postby jasonl » Wed Sep 26, 2018 12:30 pm

NBC and FOX for me are VHF-LO at 58 Deg off of true North (about 7 miles LOS)
PBS ABC CBS are VHF-HI @ 110 Deg off of true north (about 5 miles LOS)
The only low VHF in Vegas is KHSV on 2, which carries a bunch of subchannel networks (H&I, Decades, Comet, and Antenna TV). ABC, CBS, Fox, and PBS are on high VHF, and everything else is on UHF. Nothing is changing bands for the repack, and the only ones moving at all are a couple low power stations

ACraigo
Posts: 379
Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2018 3:32 pm
Device ID: 1062E8EE
Location: Deep Canyon in WV (by God)

Re: OTA Signal Measurements

Postby ACraigo » Wed Sep 26, 2018 12:58 pm

NBC and FOX for me are VHF-LO at 58 Deg off of true North (about 7 miles LOS)
PBS ABC CBS are VHF-HI @ 110 Deg off of true north (about 5 miles LOS)
The only low VHF in Vegas is KHSV on 2, which carries a bunch of subchannel networks (H&I, Decades, Comet, and Antenna TV). ABC, CBS, Fox, and PBS are on high VHF, and everything else is on UHF. Nothing is changing bands for the repack, and the only ones moving at all are a couple low power stations
Isn't 9 actually 5.1?

I was just over on the fool and was trying to find an explanation of:
"9 (5.1)"
but it just didn't reveal itself to me.

I seem to recall knowing at one time what that meant, but some newer info must have needed storage and booted that old info out.

;)

jasonl
Silicondust
Posts: 13053
Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2007 9:23 pm

Re: OTA Signal Measurements

Postby jasonl » Wed Sep 26, 2018 1:12 pm

KVVU (CBS) identifies as 5.x, but actually broadcasts on channel 9 (high VHF). KSNV (NBC) identifies as 2.x, but actually broadcasts on 22.

scubajwd
Posts: 127
Joined: Fri Aug 23, 2013 10:31 am

Re: OTA Signal Measurements

Postby scubajwd » Thu Sep 27, 2018 10:21 am

Hopes are fading that I can pull in NBC (low VHF); the new ClearStream 4V seems
to be working OK for HI-VHF; I won't have definitive signal quality numbers
on ABC CBS PBS for a few days yet..I'm going to run an experiment putting the 4V on an
extensable pole (telescoping pool pole) and point it directly at the NBC tower..the 4V
should be about 25 feet up at this point ; if I can pull in NBC but not the others in this
orientation then
I'm probably looking at two antennas and a combiner if I want all the major networks;

ACraigo
Posts: 379
Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2018 3:32 pm
Device ID: 1062E8EE
Location: Deep Canyon in WV (by God)

Re: OTA Signal Measurements

Postby ACraigo » Thu Sep 27, 2018 1:30 pm

Hopes are fading that I can pull in NBC (low VHF); the new ClearStream 4V seems
to be working OK for HI-VHF; I won't have definitive signal quality numbers
on ABC CBS PBS for a few days yet..I'm going to run an experiment putting the 4V on an
extensable pole (telescoping pool pole) and point it directly at the NBC tower..the 4V
should be about 25 feet up at this point ; if I can pull in NBC but not the others in this
orientation then
I'm probably looking at two antennas and a combiner if I want all the major networks;
...take a piece of wire 25% longer (wild guess is close enough) than the VHF element, cut it in half and 'jury-rig' it to each side of the VHF element terminals. That might spring your VHF-lo into action and if it does, perhaps a 3 band antenna is more suited to your needs. Of course, a 3 band job is going to be (Much) bigger, but you gotta do, what you gotta do to get where you wanna go.

You could always just build a VHF-Lo Antenna following the expert tutelage from 'Shelby The Swamp Man's Antaaner Construction Company' (link above, somewhere), aim at your VHF-Lo tower, run a backwards splitter between the C4 and 'The Shelby', fed with equal lengths of coax, and get on with your life.

:)

scubajwd
Posts: 127
Joined: Fri Aug 23, 2013 10:31 am

Re: OTA Signal Measurements

Postby scubajwd » Thu Sep 27, 2018 1:58 pm

Hopes are fading that I can pull in NBC (low VHF); the new ClearStream 4V seems
to be working OK for HI-VHF; I won't have definitive signal quality numbers
on ABC CBS PBS for a few days yet..I'm going to run an experiment putting the 4V on an
extensable pole (telescoping pool pole) and point it directly at the NBC tower..the 4V
should be about 25 feet up at this point ; if I can pull in NBC but not the others in this
orientation then
I'm probably looking at two antennas and a combiner if I want all the major networks;
...take a piece of wire 25% longer (wild guess is close enough) than the VHF element, cut it in half and 'jury-rig' it to each side of the VHF element terminals. That might spring your VHF-lo into action and if it does, perhaps a 3 band antenna is more suited to your needs. Of course, a 3 band job is going to be (Much) bigger, but you gotta do, what you gotta do to get where you wanna go.

You could always just build a VHF-Lo Antenna following the expert tutelage from 'Shelby The Swamp Man's Antaaner Construction Company' (link above, somewhere), aim at your VHF-Lo tower, run a backwards splitter between the C4 and 'The Shelby', fed with equal lengths of coax, and get on with your life.

:)
orrr.....wait for it.....just convince wifey that we can live w/o NBC!!!...thanx AC..I'll try your
jury rig just the same!!

ACraigo
Posts: 379
Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2018 3:32 pm
Device ID: 1062E8EE
Location: Deep Canyon in WV (by God)

Re: OTA Signal Measurements

Postby ACraigo » Thu Sep 27, 2018 3:05 pm

orrr.....wait for it.....just convince wifey that we can live w/o NBC!!!...thanx AC..I'll try your
jury rig just the same!!
Well, I wouldn't be able to sit idly by with freely available electromagnetic energy passing through me, my dental work, my dog, my wife (order of importance), etc without me doing SOMETHING to gather as much of it as possible, by ANY means necessary. I'm just not built like that.

I stand firmly with the wife on this one.

Get busy.

lol

gggplaya
Posts: 20
Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2015 7:48 am

Re: OTA Signal Measurements

Postby gggplaya » Thu Sep 27, 2018 5:47 pm

Hopes are fading that I can pull in NBC (low VHF); the new ClearStream 4V seems
to be working OK for HI-VHF; I won't have definitive signal quality numbers
on ABC CBS PBS for a few days yet..I'm going to run an experiment putting the 4V on an
extensable pole (telescoping pool pole) and point it directly at the NBC tower..the 4V
should be about 25 feet up at this point ; if I can pull in NBC but not the others in this
orientation then
I'm probably looking at two antennas and a combiner if I want all the major networks;
...take a piece of wire 25% longer (wild guess is close enough) than the VHF element, cut it in half and 'jury-rig' it to each side of the VHF element terminals. That might spring your VHF-lo into action and if it does, perhaps a 3 band antenna is more suited to your needs. Of course, a 3 band job is going to be (Much) bigger, but you gotta do, what you gotta do to get where you wanna go.

You could always just build a VHF-Lo Antenna following the expert tutelage from 'Shelby The Swamp Man's Antaaner Construction Company' (link above, somewhere), aim at your VHF-Lo tower, run a backwards splitter between the C4 and 'The Shelby', fed with equal lengths of coax, and get on with your life.

:)
orrr.....wait for it.....just convince wifey that we can live w/o NBC!!!...thanx AC..I'll try your
jury rig just the same!!
The Olympics are on NBC, do you watch them?

jasonl
Silicondust
Posts: 13053
Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2007 9:23 pm

Re: OTA Signal Measurements

Postby jasonl » Tue Oct 02, 2018 2:10 pm

Hopes are fading that I can pull in NBC (low VHF); the new ClearStream 4V seems
to be working OK for HI-VHF; I won't have definitive signal quality numbers
on ABC CBS PBS for a few days yet..I'm going to run an experiment putting the 4V on an
extensable pole (telescoping pool pole) and point it directly at the NBC tower..the 4V
should be about 25 feet up at this point ; if I can pull in NBC but not the others in this
orientation then
I'm probably looking at two antennas and a combiner if I want all the major networks;
In case I haven't made this abundantly clear, your local NBC station is not low VHF. It broadcasts on UHF channel 22. Anything you do to try to bring in low VHF will have no impact whatsoever on it. What you do need to try is moving the antenna to various locations. Without line of sight, you're going to have to rely on the signal bending around whatever ridge is between you and the towers. VHF does this better than UHF, so it's easier to get the VHF stations. UHF still does it to a lesser extent, but there are going to be hot and cold spots, and moving the antenna a few feet might make a huge difference, so you're just going to have to experiment to find the perfect spot.

dantell
Posts: 14
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2015 3:35 pm

Re: OTA Signal Measurements

Postby dantell » Sat Oct 06, 2018 4:17 pm

I am coming back to my HDHomerun to test the new premium tv on a HDHR Connect. I have used my 4 other tuners (Original and Primes) for years but recently switched to PS Vue and Youtube TV. I updated my Connect to the latest FW and checked the orientation of my Channel Master 8 bay that i have used for years and scanned my channels. I can pull in around 70 channels except for Channel 5 KPHO, Channel 12 KPNX and Channel 11. I dont watch 11, but i noticed it wasnt in the listing either.

All of the transmitters are on the same mountain in basically a line (according to TV fool). I have tried with and without an amp. I have replaced cabling. I have purchased a couple of indoor antennas that were recommended (Mohu / Clearstream) to compare. My outside antenna is about 15' up and i have pulled in these channels before without too much trouble. I have sat with the signal meter and tried to pull in 5 and 12 by repointing the antenna to see if there was any sign of them, but nothing.

KTVK CW 3 18 530 Mhz UHF -- Fine
KPHO CBS 5 18 488 Mhz UHF -- No sign of station
KAET PBS 8 18 180 Mhz VHF-Hi -- Fine
KSAZ FOX 10 18 192 Mhz VHF-Hi -- Fine
KTAZ TELEMUNDO 11 18 560 Mhz UHF -- No Sign of station
KPNX NBC 12 18 S 204 Mhz VHF-Hi -- No sign of station
KNXV ABC 15 18 476 Mhz UHF -- Fine

Not quite sure what tree i should be barking up at this point. The antenna seems fine, almost picked up another tuner to see if that was the issue, whether mine is faulty or the new FW is causing it. I may rummage around for my old original HDHR and see if those stations come in. Any recommendations are appreciated.

signcarver
Expert
Posts: 7806
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2007 1:04 am
Device ID: 131B34B7 13231F92 1070A18E 1073ED6F

Re: OTA Signal Measurements

Postby signcarver » Sat Oct 06, 2018 5:04 pm

Though I don't know if such work is still going on, one thing about kpho was brought up by jasonl a few weeks ago and that is KTAZ needing some tower work and ever since I have noticed my signal of kpho down substantially (though not down to the point it isn't working for me but was high 80's to low 90s for strength now is around 66-70). The other one I have had trouble with since has been channel 38 (K38iz) which is very low power to begin with and would expect such but one of its subchannels is really the only reason I even bother with trying with an antenna. Also KTAZ is currently 39 not 11 (since 2006)

see viewtopic.php?f=113&t=69539&p=328836#p328836

scubajwd
Posts: 127
Joined: Fri Aug 23, 2013 10:31 am

Re: OTA Signal Measurements

Postby scubajwd » Sun Oct 07, 2018 7:35 am

Hopes are fading that I can pull in NBC (low VHF); the new ClearStream 4V seems
to be working OK for HI-VHF; I won't have definitive signal quality numbers
on ABC CBS PBS for a few days yet..I'm going to run an experiment putting the 4V on an
extensable pole (telescoping pool pole) and point it directly at the NBC tower..the 4V
should be about 25 feet up at this point ; if I can pull in NBC but not the others in this
orientation then
I'm probably looking at two antennas and a combiner if I want all the major networks;
In case I haven't made this abundantly clear, your local NBC station is not low VHF. It broadcasts on UHF channel 22. Anything you do to try to bring in low VHF will have no impact whatsoever on it. What you do need to try is moving the antenna to various locations. Without line of sight, you're going to have to rely on the signal bending around whatever ridge is between you and the towers. VHF does this better than UHF, so it's easier to get the VHF stations. UHF still does it to a lesser extent, but there are going to be hot and cold spots, and moving the antenna a few feet might make a huge difference, so you're just going to have to experiment to find the perfect spot.
Thanx..Jason..been away from this thread for a few days working on getting the antenna into my
attic; did not know that NBC was UHF.. once I elevate the antenna I have no doubt
now (in view of your info) that I should pull in NBC..this is a huge relief for me..thanx


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